Detecting covert tracking device

[seaq]

I am looking for ways to locate and or narrow down a covert tracking device in a vehicle to a reasonable area for proper removal. It does not emit a signal on any of the common wireless signals 700-900, 1900-2100. Does not emit a signal without moving (not 100% sure). Although it likely does connect to its home every hour or so. Has been working for close to a year, likely has power source into vehicle. I am requesting any recommendations for creative ideas perhaps some type of imaging technology to capture the source of the wireless transmission. I know of Flir, the vehicle would have to be towed to create enough of a signal to detect heat without the vehicle creating more heat. I am looking to create a service so short of disassembling the entire car I need more efficient ways to detect.

Thanks for any guidance.

 

[davenn]

have you thought of the obvious ... a spectrum analyser ?

for it to be able to reliably transmit over any reasonable distance, the freq is unlikely to be greater than 1 GHz ... even if it was satellite received

so how do you know this device exists ?

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

I am looking to create a service

Do I understand this right:
- The car owners have built this into their cars, to track the car when it is stolen.
- You want to offer service to assist the thieves in removing the tracking device from the stolen car?

 

[vfone]

Could be a "Passive Resonant Cavity Transmitter":

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274748

 

[chuckey]

These devices contain a receiver which receives and decodes the particular vehicle address . So the vehicle then transmits, if you want it to transmit continuosly then you have to address it continuosly. If you speak to your local police force , I am sure that they will do this for you.
Frank

 

[seaq]

have you thought of the obvious ... a spectrum analyser ?

for it to be able to reliably transmit over any reasonable distance, the freq is unlikely to be greater than 1 GHz ... even if it was satellite received

so how do you know this device exists ?

I have a spectrum analyzer. Aaronia hf-6501 with a directional antenna. Measures 9khz up to 9.4 ghz. It just doesnt quite cut it. Not because of the range but because of the circumstances in which the signal is transmitted and its unknown location on the vehicle. Will try the oscor green at some point just not wanting to dish out the money until I have some professional guidance.

I know the device exists simply by observing the physical actions of those that have placed the tracking device. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Do I understand this right:
- The car owners have built this into their cars, to track the car when it is stolen.
- You want to offer service to assist the thieves in removing the tracking device from the stolen car?

No, I am the rightful owner of the car/cars. The tracking device is placed on the vehicle using deception. It is akin to having a ankle monitor placed on you without your knowledge.

Not a service to help theives, simply a passive tool to detect unwarranted signals from emitting from your own property. The tracking device on the other hand is used by criminals and government agencies for their benefit.

Could be a "Passive Resonant Cavity Transmitter":

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1274748

I dont have enough knowledge to state whether that is possible or not, but my personal opinion is that its unlikely.

These devices contain a receiver which receives and decodes the particular vehicle address . So the vehicle then transmits, if you want it to transmit continuosly then you have to address it continuosly. If you speak to your local police force , I am sure that they will do this for you.
Frank

Its a little more complex than that. That wont help. Thanks for the effort.

 

[biff44]

what type of tracking? is there a gps receiver tracking the location, and it just reports wirelessly every couple hours? if so there is quite likely a local oscillator signal in the GPS receiver, and that can be detected (the local oscillator often re-radiates), so scan for a very low level signal in the 1575 MHz +/- a few MHz. The gps receiver also may have a reference clock crystal oscillator, in the 10 MHz range, that might leak out energy.

other than that, you will need a broadband antenna that is small, and move it around while leaving the spectrum analyzer on in "max hold" mode, and try to find where the signal is the highest

 

[seaq]

what type of tracking? is there a gps receiver tracking the location, and it just reports wirelessly every couple hours? if so there is quite likely a local oscillator signal in the GPS receiver, and that can be detected (the local oscillator often re-radiates), so scan for a very low level signal in the 1575 MHz +/- a few MHz. The gps receiver also may have a reference clock crystal oscillator, in the 10 MHz range, that might leak out energy.

other than that, you will need a broadband antenna that is small, and move it around while leaving the spectrum analyzer on in "max hold" mode, and try to find where the signal is the highest

It is gps tracking although it is sophisticated enough that if not now it will be in the future, the capability to accept galileo, glonass, and the other constellations that are arriving by the year. 1575 mhz is gps L1, just as a side note, I have tried using a small gps cigarette lighter jammer that jams the L1 band and it had zero effect on the tracking system. I will try detecting the L2 and L5 bands for good measure. In your opinion, what are the odds that such a sophisticated tracking system would re-radiate the gps signal and if that is a possible solution to detection how difficult would it be to eliminate that problem as Im sure if that would allow detection right now, future systems will not.

 

[davenn]

I know the device exists simply by observing the physical actions of those that have placed the tracking device. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

This thread reeks of paranoia ... seriously
you infer that you know who has placed the "device"
why are you not involving police or other authority ?

 

[seaq]

This thread reeks of paranoia ... seriously
you infer that you know who has placed the "device"
why are you not involving police or other authority ?

Sorry, should have been more specific. I have proof which was verified by a KJB DD1207, which initially gave a reading for a 3g signal emitting. I no longer have proof as the frequency has since been changed which has rendered the KJB useless as it only monitors common wireless frequencies. I know the device is still emitting as I can still observe the actions of those that placed the device. It may be paranoia but its based on reality. I understand the skepticism as you dont have every single detail as it pertains to this situation but Im 100% certain of my assessments. What Im trying to obtain is technical advice, nothing more and nothing less. Many people will be grateful of my services that will be offered as this is pioneering work.

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

Sorry, should have been more specific. I have proof which was verified by a KJB DD1207, which initially gave a reading for a 3g signal emitting.

If we look at this review, that instrument doesn't seem to be reliable.
https://www.amazon.com/KJB-DD1207-Multi-Channel-Detector-Protocols/dp/B00DDXJZWA

I know the device is still emitting as I can still observe the actions of those that placed the device.

Maybe they track you (not the car) in some other way?

Many people will be grateful of my services that will be offered as this is pioneering work.

It seem that you are looking for help/service, not offering service !?

 

[davenn]

I know the device is still emitting as I can still observe the actions of those that placed the device.

so again I say .... get the authorities involved .... or do you think it's already think it's them doing it ... CIA, NSA, homeland security etc etc
in whatever in you country


from a technical POV, you never really answered the spec analyser question.

is the signal so strong that even with no antenna on the spec an it's full strength ?
if it isn't then you need to identify the sig freq, that should be easy. monitor the spec an whilst some one else is driving
once the freq is identified, use the most basic antenna possible and mount it in different areas around the vehicle and start
driving and narrow down to where the signal is strongest.

for something to have the ability to transmit any significant distance, its going to be a reasonable size and once its location
area on the vehicle is narrowed down it should be too difficult to find


else buy lots of aluminium foil and wrap you and your car up to shield transmissions :roll:


D

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

The device probably stores all motion information for polled broadcast or predetermined timed response to one of many cellular networks; consumer or private. Thus it could be store forward in radio silence then update upon command or a server is received.

The Soviets once tapped the US Ambassador's office with a passive radiator embedded in a children's carving gift of the great American seal for 8 years after WWII. ,

German Chancellor was not too happy for her cell phone being tapped by the Excited States of America, but took it stride.

Then Australian tapped into Indonseian govt phones. ... And these are just a few in the media.

In countries where civil liberties are not openly respected, everyone is fair game for the Govt to hunt you down. Even in Canada they want to pass a Bill C-51 which permits officials to monitor without transparency like the NSA. Hopefully voters will be aware. Technology is pervasive and only aggrevates insecurity rather than the goal of achieving security.

Transparency is the solution, audited by a Professional leader chosen by the public and not those with money or getting re-elected as a motive. We as professionals need to educate the public, if /where possible with truth and transparency in non-violent ways.

Unfortunately, security and freedom are contradictions and often pointless exercises and sometimes harassment unless focused effectively without compromise to the masses on Civil liberties. Just ask the world's security guru's Snowden and Schneirer. It has not been an effective tradeoff for freedom.

 

[seaq]

If we look at this review, that instrument doesn't seem to be reliable.
https://www.amazon.com/KJB-DD1207-Multi-Channel-Detector-Protocols/dp/B00DDXJZWA



Maybe they track you (not the car) in some other way?



It seem that you are looking for help/service, not offering service !?

The device is reliable in that if your looking to solve the most elementary of tasks then it works. For true counter-surveillance its useless. There is no other way of being tracked, I dont carry any electronics. I am looking for help to my problem, once solved I will then be offering a service to others and my goals are ambitious. The entire vehicle surveillance industry will be turned on its head, Edward Snowdenesque, to date it has been fueled on the outpacing of new technology versus consumer knowledge. That wont happen any longer. I wont allow people to be held captive by the very same electronics we created. Freedom is more psychological than anything, when a tracking device is on your car, you are in prison despite your ability to move around and it can be done in less than 30 seconds with a magnetic device. I dont believe

so again I say .... get the authorities involved .... or do you think it's already think it's them doing it ... CIA, NSA, homeland security etc etc
in whatever in you country


from a technical POV, you never really answered the spec analyser question.

is the signal so strong that even with no antenna on the spec an it's full strength ?
if it isn't then you need to identify the sig freq, that should be easy. monitor the spec an whilst some one else is driving
once the freq is identified, use the most basic antenna possible and mount it in different areas around the vehicle and start
driving and narrow down to where the signal is strongest.

for something to have the ability to transmit any significant distance, its going to be a reasonable size and once its location
area on the vehicle is narrowed down it should be too difficult to find


else buy lots of aluminium foil and wrap you and your car up to shield transmissions :roll:


D

That is the beauty of this device. It would be an exercise in futility to get authorities involved. You cant detect it begin with without expertise and then what. How do you prove who placed it there?

Finding the signal is not the big issue. Any wireless transmission can be detected with enough effort. I am looking for a solution to narrow down and capture the device emitting the signal and not for a one time basis. As a service, it will be placed in different locations in every car therefore the method needs to be replicated over and over. Im looking for suggestions to possible antennas maybe even custom equipment that can be placed on the car similar to direction finding equipment that could narrow the signal down to inches. The car must be moving and signals are sent in short bursts on unknown frequencies. My spec analyzer picks up no signal from inside the car. Ive tried a cell phone placed under the hood and testing while inside the car, my spec reads nothing and it has a external amp and internal pre amp. Still no read. The tracking device is likely placed under the hood. I cant sit on top of the hood, drive 10+ mph and detect. That isnt feasible.

 

[davenn]

My spec analyzer picks up no signal from inside the car

I cant sit on top of the hood, drive 10+ mph and detect. That isnt feasible.

you really are not thinking too clearly eh?

so that tells you the transmitter is under the bonnet or under the car huh
so with spec an in the car where you can monitor it and antenna outside in different locations then narrow down where it is ... that's why they make coax cable

if your spec an. cannot pick up a signal from somewhere around the vehicle at that close range ... then nothing with a weaker receiver further away is going to be able to ... aye



D

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

It will be some kind of event triggered data collection, ( ignition , acceleration ) installed where interrupters are located under the hood. With different receive and transmit paths like GPS Down/ GSM Up when host is near and in motion with logged data.
It can also be any links with Cell tower triangulation services. Toronto has over 2000 cell towers, if I recall....

- - - Updated - - -

It is a legitimate business with GPS trackers for commercial fleet tracking.

Police are no help. Just thank Dick Chaney.

 

[seaq]

you really are not thinking too clearly eh?

so that tells you the transmitter is under the bonnet or under the car huh
so with spec an in the car where you can monitor it and antenna outside in different locations then narrow down where it is ... that's why they make coax cable

if your spec an. cannot pick up a signal from somewhere around the vehicle at that close range ... then nothing with a weaker receiver further away is going to be able to ... aye



D

Ok. What setup would you recommend from spec analyzer to the different antennas that would be mounted around the vehicle. I havent seen anything on the market. Reminder, the car needs to be moving which will likely introduce stray signals.

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

Ok. What setup would you recommend from spec analyzer to the different antennas that would be mounted around the vehicle. I havent seen anything on the market.

Spectrum analyzers:
**broken link removed**
http://www.tek.com/datasheet/rsa306/rsa306-usb-real-time-spectrum-analyzer-datasheet

Near field probes:
http://www.rohde-schwarz.us/en/product/hz15-productstartpage_63493-8985.html
http://www.ets-lindgren.com/pdf/7405.pdf
http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Antennas/RF-Near-Field-Probe-Set.pdf

 

[seaq]

Spectrum analyzers:
**broken link removed**
http://www.tek.com/datasheet/rsa306/rsa306-usb-real-time-spectrum-analyzer-datasheet

Near field probes:
http://www.rohde-schwarz.us/en/product/hz15-productstartpage_63493-8985.html
http://www.ets-lindgren.com/pdf/7405.pdf
http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Antennas/RF-Near-Field-Probe-Set.pdf

I have the aaronia analyzer. Was looking for possible better options if it was available but I have some hired help arriving soon to tackle this problem so we'll see what we can make of it. Ill be sure to keep this thread updated as Im sure there are others that could use the detailed breakdown.

 

[Vbase]

It is more likely that the device detects movement by its GPS and not by being wired to your speedometer or your wheels.
It is also likely that the device is independent of your car battery.
In this cases your car must be moving to operate the device.
Is there a short crossing ferry service near? you can do all the measurements while the ferry sails.
You can also load your car on a big closed lorry and do the tests while it is moving.
If all fails sell the car to someone you don't like.