From Layout into Design career: can it be done?

[nrf]

Hello everybody,
I am an Engineer (Masters degree) and am doing IC Analog Layout since almost two years, by now.
After this experience I would like to have a deeper approach to the design of ICs, by not only implementing physically what designers implement on the sheet, but also thinking and concepting new ICs from the beginning. In one word, migrate into design.
My company till now cannot provide this to me, since there are few layouters around, as everybody will know.
Months ago I started to apply various jobs as designer, even abroad, but nothing happened, neither an interview. It seems to me that companies want designers being able to do layout but if someone, able in layout, applies as designer, everything falls, even though you apply as graduate/junior designer.
I think layout is a good beginning for someone who'd like to be introduced in the semiconductor field, but on the other hand is really blocking once you decided to migrate to design. And this is quite disappointing to me and my career.
Does anybody agree? Opinions/suggestions?
TNX!

 

[uladz55]

Hi,

I agree with you, layout is a good beginning for someone who'd like to be introduced in the semiconductor field, specially in Analog IC design.

When you design analog IC you need to consider how to implement your design in silicon. So, an analog IC layout background is useful.

Good luck.

 

[Puppet1]

most analog IC engineers should do layout in the beginning as part of mentoring as well as working in the lab and doing some simulation.

but 2 years is a long time.. you must change your approach to work, you must become more friendly with the people in design and ask them privately if you can assist them with their design, ask them if there is some small thing you can assist them with, they will gain confidence in you and give you more work. in analog it is hard to trust, (my opinion) since the work is difficult, the hours long, the money is big, an analog guy has a lot of responsibility.

so get to know more people: don't be afraid .. ask more questions to the person you are doing layout for, show more interest. soon, they will see you want to do more than layout!

 

[nrf]

Hello again,
and firstly thanks for your answers! I agree with you, Puppet1, I already tried to do it hardly, but it's some kind of unuseful from the career perspective, if you just study and simulate little blocks by yourself while hoping your manager/boss doesn't catch you doing other things than layout.
Other colleagues explain only things in order to let you do a better layout, by always remaining upon the surface and I don't think that studying between a tape out and another or during your working spare hours makes you grow from the design perspective.
In your CV you will be stamped as layouter, even though you know more about design by yourself. So it will be difficult to up-turn your career. And the companies approach is to exploit you as layouter, if you know it since 2 yrs and seen the lack of layouters.
I live in Europe and tried to apply in the UK (away from my country), thinking that layout knowledge would have been helpful and appreciated by companies for the design, but I again think it's a sort of bottle neck.
I think people more expert than me can say his opinion in this forum, maybe someone who is in my situation. That's the reason why I'm writing, by always understanding and respecting who does layout since many years because he likes it and never complains
Thanks for your advices!

 

[EcraZ]

Same situation , Design is thought of very brainy stuff and layout is considered as support for designers and not very creative. So layout designers as i've seen are considered as technitians and not engineers. It is Layout people who put design to silicon and still considered not important. If a layout person has interest,motivation and knowledge then i don't understand why people don't have the confidence and courage to give them a chance. By motivation and praise even the most dull student can be made intelligent and by demotivation and criticism even the intelligent can be made a vegitable.

 

[Nobody]

The situation is same on PCB layout . You had better find the most critical application then the diffrentiation is apparent . For ex. , the application on RF . The RF layout is important and dominate the quality of design . It's somewhat sophiscate as for you should have enough knowledge background to conquer it . Likewise you will find the specific asic applications worth to devote to and dive for .

 

[sunking]

You can do it.
The layout have give you a good knoweledge.
Study some book about the design, and related the layout, then try to do some project.

 

[mandrei]

Hi nrf,

In your CV you will be stamped as layouter, even though you know more about design by yourself. So it will be difficult to up-turn your career

Please note that depend only on you what you write in CV!!

If in your CV is written:

"Experience: layout= 2 years, IC design=0 years"

nobody will give you a job like an IC designer!!

So it is usefull to introduce a little lie in your CV like:

"Experience: IC design=2 years, layout= 2 years"

and you will have big chances to get the job.

Also note that introducing little lies in CV's is a verry common practice and it only serves to get the job!!

Afterwards, depend only on you to prove that you are indded a good IC designer!

 

[qutang]

the change is difficulte.but you can try.

 

[Mazz]

In my opinion a small "lie" is not really convenient, as you'll be asked in an interview what have you designed and the guys expect that you're able to discuss with an advanced level the subject...
In my company a guy did this change. He worked as layout designer while he was studying electronics. Once he finished the studies, and when there was the possibility for the company, he started to work as a designer. Not a problem.

In my opinion the best thing is to look into your company, for two reasons:
-if you're a good guy (and you have to demonstrate it day by day), at the first chance you'll be choosen. In fact, for the company is convenient to take a new layout eng. respect to a new designer.
-in your CV the layout experience is not relevant for the position of IC designer (I know that is wrong, but a lot of companies think different).

The real problem is that now is difficult to everybody to get a good job as IC designer.

Consider also the possibility to move...

I hope it can help.
Mazz

 

[kawaiicat]

hi, nrf
same situation here..
i was a layout before, now i am IC designer..but i just feel i am lucky or..
first i just having a degree, and no nothing about semiconductor ( i just know the cross section of transistor..haha) and apply IC designer ..
sure my boss reject me but give me chance to learn layout..at first many my colleague doubt why my boss employ me and i am under great pressure..
ppl behind me look me down...treat me as the lowest position in office
meanwhile i got chance to simulate some block of the circuit..and finally i went to get a master degree in IC, u know it still very fresh even after get the master, u know those just some course and u can't expert too much, but at least u know how to design some blocks. and i get promot to IC designer
i really want to say thanks to my boss, as he dont' mind my background and he give me chance.
but i do feel a bit sad cause even after promoted, i dont' have chance to be a project in charge , always just take parts of them. if i change job, it's hard in this time, i can't say i am IC design before but mainly do layout and just design functional block, if i want to leave, i think i need to wait my chance to get some design job...
good luck, nrf, just step out, i think you can get what you wish.

 

[andy2049]

If I were you, I will take some IC design courses first. Then do some projects. And change your background as necessory. It is important to show they your DESIGN experience in your CV.

 

[Teddy]

It can. But obviously it will be a bit hard - especially in your case if your boss does not like the idea (sounds like Germany).
Try to improve you CV by adding keywords like "parasitic extraction", "post layout simulation", "ESD protection" - actually not many people know how to design good ESD, "crosstalk cancellation" "signal integrity" and stuff like that - I am sure you did that. DO NOT LIE EVER - they will find out and it could ruin everything.
For sure it will be hard to get to analog design. What you can do is to get to digital library develpment group. They (digital companies) need people with layout skills. I know way too many people who are good digital designers but have no idea how transistor looks like. Also I/O design could be way to go.
I recommend step by step approach. It could be hard to get directly to analog or Mixed signal design.
Good luck.

 

[kawaiicat]

i think ESD is a bit complicated..i think that's about analog design and need to success through many test...even same circuit but difference structure may ruin it.
but teddy is right..never lie..LOL

 

[alanbrooke]

It can! In fact, the experience of layout is very important for the for the analog IC designer. I think that an analog engineer without knowledge of layout isn’t a good analog designer.

 

[cmosbjt]

So it is usefull to introduce a little lie in your CV like:

"Experience: IC design=2 years, layout= 2 years"

and you will have big chances to get the job.

Oh, the lie is not small. If I was the interviewer, I can find out in 5 minutes. Actually when I applied for jobs several years ago, I found that those interviewer were smart guys. They always ask questions related to industrial or what you have done before. It is not easy to cheat them.

 

[xiongshoufen]

layout job is very very tedious.

 

[j2005]

Hello,

IMO, the first thing you can do is understand the circuits that your designers are passing to you. If you are good enough to know what the circuits do without designers telling you, then you are on your way to becoming a designer. Circuits tend to be made up of standard modules which you'll find in textbooks. Learn how to identify them. Occassionally, you'd find some oddball circuits.

I always value a layouteer who can make suggestions to me and point out problems with my design. After a while, you'll be able to contribute to the design process and that's when you can put "design experience" in your CV.

 

[polygonpusher]

I am also in the same situation and I haven't found a way out yet. I started with layout, and I'm still pushing polygons FT. But I was able to get some experience running simulations for designers and I try to learn from them as much as possible. I think I am kind of in between layout and design, but haven't officially made the jump. My last company gave me a chance to switch to design, but after a few weeks of design work, the company downsized and I was one of the victims.
Hence, I had to go back to finding another FT layout since that was my strong point. I think the more layout work you do, the bigger the hole you're digging. I also had a friend who was also in the same situation but he was able to work for a company that allowed him to switch completely to design from layout. That only happended because he had another design job offer in another state and was going to leave the company. Anyhow, I just wanted to say good luck and hope things will work out for you better.

 

[lhenfalculan]

Ive been working for almost five years in layout job, until now, I find it so challenging but i think design jobs is more exciting and so in demands as of today. Besides, more money than layout ...