Welcome to EDAboard.com

Welcome to our site! EDAboard.com is an international Electronic Discussion Forum focused on EDA software, circuits, schematics, books, theory, papers, asic, pld, 8051, DSP, Network, RF, Analog Design, PCB, Service Manuals... and a whole lot more! To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.

Register Log in

Do we have to use external capacitor at the output of voltage regulator?

Status
Not open for further replies.

surianova

Advanced Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
411
Helped
30
Reputation
60
Reaction score
8
Trophy points
1,298
Location
ASIA
Activity points
3,276
hi all,

normally in the design of voltage regulator, do we use external capacitor at the output?
 

v_c

Advanced Member level 2
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
514
Helped
113
Reputation
226
Reaction score
37
Trophy points
1,308
Location
Chicago, IL, USA
Activity points
8,229
Re: PSRR for regulator

Yes, you almost always need some capacitance at the output. Older NPN based regulators (like the 78xx) series are pretty stable and they don't need much output capacitance. This is because they are based on an emitter follower which has very low output impedance.

PNP or PMOS based low-dropout regulators (also known as LDOs) do require much larger capacitance for stability. Further complicating the issue is that the capacitor must have some equivalent series resistance (ESR). The ESR (which is an inherent part of the capacitor) together with the capacitance itself gives rise to a transmission zero in the loop gain transfer function and this helps to stabilize the system. It turns out that the ESR value must not bee too high or too low otherwise the phase margin of the system will be too low for a proper design. Most manufacturers will specify the range of ESR that is needed for their regulators.

So if you use a real *good* capacitor with very low ESR at the output of your LDO, you will surely get lots of oscillations at the output of your regulator. So in this case better component does not translate into a better or more reliable design.

Take a look at this PMOS-based LDO http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps76433.pdf
The plots on page 9 show the region of stability for given ESR values.

I hope this helps you out.

Best regards,
\[ v_c \]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

    surianova

    points: 2
    Helpful Answer Positive Rating

surianova

Advanced Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
411
Helped
30
Reputation
60
Reaction score
8
Trophy points
1,298
Location
ASIA
Activity points
3,276
Re: PSRR for regulator

normaly for NMOS pass transistor, the external capacitor not require, am i right?

Is the external capacitor help to extend the DC frequency of the PSRR?
 

v_c

Advanced Member level 2
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
514
Helped
113
Reputation
226
Reaction score
37
Trophy points
1,308
Location
Chicago, IL, USA
Activity points
8,229
Re: PSRR for regulator

Yes, NMOS should in theory not require a capacitor, but I think you still need something out there because you don't want your phase margin to be anything less than 45 degrees. So if you have a good loop gain with a large gain at low frequencies and crossing the 0dB point with -20db/decade slope, the system should be pretty stable. The power supply rejection ratio tells us how sensitive the system stablity is to changes in the input voltage. If you have a large enough low-frequency loop gain the PSRR shoud be inversely proportional to the loop gain.

Best regards,
v_c
 
Last edited by a moderator:

surianova

Advanced Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
411
Helped
30
Reputation
60
Reaction score
8
Trophy points
1,298
Location
ASIA
Activity points
3,276
Re: PSRR for regulator

v_c said:
Yes, NMOS should in theory not require a capacitor, but I think you still need something out there because you don't want your phase margin to be anything less than 45 degrees. So if you have a good loop gain with a large gain at low frequencies and crossing the 0dB point with -20db/decade slope, the system should be pretty stable. The power supply rejection ratio tells us how sensitive the system stablity is to changes in the input voltage. If you have a large enough low-frequency loop gain the PSRR shoud be inversely proportional to the loop gain.

Best regards,
\[v_c\]
so, the external capacitor won't help in extend the DC PSRR but only improve
the phase margin. Is it correct?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

v_c

Advanced Member level 2
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
514
Helped
113
Reputation
226
Reaction score
37
Trophy points
1,308
Location
Chicago, IL, USA
Activity points
8,229
Re: PSRR for regulator

Well, I believe the PSRR is a transfer function itself so it does have frequency response.and it will be effected by the poles of the system. This transfer function is from a disturbance on the input voltage to the output so it is better to have lots of attenuation at the frequencies you are interested in having rejection.
 

suria3

Full Member level 5
Joined
Mar 5, 2004
Messages
304
Helped
17
Reputation
34
Reaction score
5
Trophy points
1,298
Activity points
3,042
Re: PSRR for regulator

Hi V_C,

I have read a few journals, mentioning that putting a Caps (no matter internal or external) will help in high freq noise rejection in a LDO design for both NMOS and PMOS pass transistor. In the forum by surianova, you mentioned that for NMOS pass transistor , it is not necessary to have caps as the output impedance is low and this if you add any caps will only alter the high freq poles in minor. So, in this case how do i convince myself for a NMOS pass LDO design? Is that necessary to have this caps for high freq noise rejection????

Regards,
Suria
 

v_c

Advanced Member level 2
Joined
Oct 11, 2005
Messages
514
Helped
113
Reputation
226
Reaction score
37
Trophy points
1,308
Location
Chicago, IL, USA
Activity points
8,229
Re: PSRR for regulator

Suria,

I think you should put some caps at the output. What I meant to say is that you can make it work without the capacitor if you know that your load, input and temperature range is limited. But this would be a marginal design. For any kind of a real product, we always recommend caps at the output (and the input). Sorry, I should have said things more clearly. Sometimes I am thinking it but in the haste of writing the message the information does not get typed in.

Best regards,
v_c
 

pillar_chen

Member level 3
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Messages
59
Helped
1
Reputation
2
Reaction score
1
Trophy points
1,288
Activity points
1,682
PSRR for regulator

It's dependent on the phase compensation.
 

sudheer_vlsi

Junior Member level 2
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Messages
22
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,281
Activity points
1,463
Re: PSRR for regulator

hi,

for good load regulation performance and for esr compensation we need to use the external capacitor in regulator.
 

dhasmana

Member level 5
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
88
Helped
8
Reputation
16
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,286
Location
Bangalore , India.
Activity points
578
Re: PSRR for regulator

Hi,

I have observed that if the UGB of the ampr. is less then the PSRR starts to degrade at high frequencies.Even it goes to positive values at hogh freq.Any explanation for this?
Regards,
Jitendra.
 

jgarciarivera

Newbie level 5
Joined
Feb 24, 2006
Messages
9
Helped
2
Reputation
4
Reaction score
2
Trophy points
1,283
Activity points
1,360
Re: PSRR for regulator

Here is a file from EDN presenting a LDO without output capacitor
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Toggle Sidebar

Part and Inventory Search

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Top