Welcome to EDAboard.com

Welcome to our site! EDAboard.com is an international Electronic Discussion Forum focused on EDA software, circuits, schematics, books, theory, papers, asic, pld, 8051, DSP, Network, RF, Analog Design, PCB, Service Manuals... and a whole lot more! To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.

Register Log in

Comparision Spectre HSpice HSim

Status
Not open for further replies.

jk

Junior Member level 2
Joined
Jun 5, 2001
Messages
20
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,281
Activity points
200
hsim turbo mode

I would appreciate comparative information on simulation "quality" (convergence, etc) of the above mentioned simulators for analog circuits with some 100 to 1000 transistors. are there convergence or other known trade offs with hsim (which i assume as the fastest simulator) ? which simulator would be the best when invoking it several 1000 times on a design with slightly modified parameters each time (perhaps parallel invokation of several simulators on different machinesis would be also possible) are there other interesting alternatives (when simulation speed is essential ?)

best regards
 

okguy

Full Member level 6
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
360
Helped
15
Reputation
30
Reaction score
9
Trophy points
1,298
Location
China
Activity points
2,645
Search each simulator on this forum to idea.
Here is also a presentation.

OkGuy.
 

elone

Member level 3
Joined
Dec 29, 2001
Messages
63
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,286
Activity points
402
For 100 to 1000 transistors , hsim not suit!
 

edaguy69

Advanced Member level 4
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
119
Helped
4
Reputation
8
Reaction score
2
Trophy points
1,298
Location
silicon land
Activity points
949
It's not an easy job to compare different tool. it depends on the nature of your design( big or small, analog or digital), interfacing with other tools you had or you will buy, the foundry you are using ( can the foundry supply to you the model working with you tool), the expertise of your engineer, the learning curve and the budgetyou plan dor the tool. It's a one million dollars question. It can take the whole book to analyze. Here is some of my humble opinion:
Hspice, Smart Spice, Spectre. Accusim are in one group
StarsimXT, Hsim, TimeMill, Nanosim are in one group.
Particularly here are the strong point of Hspice and Spectre:
Strong point of Hspice:
-support more model than other.
-Accuracy
Strong point of Spectre:
-Integrated well with other Cadence tool (Cadence have a very good and popular schematic capture)
-Support a more liberal syntax
-Have a lot of RF feature that Hspice doesn't have

It's not a clear cut question like a van, a truck, a SUV, a sedan, a sport car which one is better.
 

edaguy69

Advanced Member level 4
Joined
Dec 11, 2002
Messages
119
Helped
4
Reputation
8
Reaction score
2
Trophy points
1,298
Location
silicon land
Activity points
949
cin said:
HSIM only took less than 3 minutes to simulate my entire full custom 32 x 32 register file. It really save me a lot of time when I tried to debug my layout. When my simulation fails, I can quickly modified my layout & resimulate it. However, this is impossible for me to do so under HSPICE or SmartSpice for such a large circuits. Both HSPICE & Smartspice just take too long ....
I aggree with you. But when you should be used. Hsim, StarSim or nanosim will run the fullchip simulation in a fraction of time with the price of accuracy sacrify. The right tool for the right job!
 

elone

Member level 3
Joined
Dec 29, 2001
Messages
63
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,286
Activity points
402
Yes ! You can't use hsim for high accuracy analog circuit !
 

dinosaur

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Apr 14, 2001
Messages
19
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,281
Activity points
79
Hsim is a good tool for mixed-signal simulation (large part in digital and
small part in analog)

Dino
 

CatKing

Full Member level 3
Joined
Jun 5, 2001
Messages
157
Helped
3
Reputation
6
Reaction score
2
Trophy points
1,298
Activity points
1,129
For all pure logic circuits, you can use any fast spice simulator as nanosim/star-sim/hsim/ultrasim/mach/adit, all of them are based on the same technology - I/V LUT. They use spice model to get the look-up-table of I/V charactor of the models, then use these LUT during the simulation process, it's fast but not accurate.
If you want hi-accurate simulation such as PLL, OSC, HSPICE/Spectre/Eldo still are the best solution.
 

Amuro

Full Member level 4
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
194
Helped
8
Reputation
16
Reaction score
5
Trophy points
1,298
Location
Thailand
Activity points
1,700
In device level, I still believe that SPICE-liked programs are the best i.e. HSPICE/Spectre etc. On the other hand, in system level, Hsim/StarSim etc. should be better (in term of time and cost).
 

kwkam

Full Member level 5
Joined
Feb 25, 2002
Messages
276
Helped
30
Reputation
60
Reaction score
13
Trophy points
1,298
Location
Somewhere on earth
Activity points
1,878
I usually use HSpice for small block of analog circuit simulation. Then use HSIM for the whole circuit simulation.
 

superluminal

Member level 4
Joined
Jan 31, 2002
Messages
79
Helped
1
Reputation
2
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,286
Location
Inside a quantum well
Activity points
806
As edaguy69 said ; there is 2 main categories of SPICE simulators:

1) " Classic " simulators (HSPICE, ELDO, SPECTRE...etc) : they are strong simulators that use many advanced & sophisticated numerical techniques to get you the level of accuracy you want. Actually many of them are old & had not changed from long time ago ( I know that actally one of them had had no kernel updates from late 80's !)

2) Fast SPICE simulators (StarsimXT, Hsim, TimeMill, Nanosim ...etc) : they are fast & use less efficient numerical analysis method & use techniques ( like hierarchy simulation ) to give you the speed you want.

In few words ; going deep in circuit analysis ( say, to test your topology ) => use the classic SPICE simulators.

To review the whole system response ( say, to check how o/p of part A affects part B ) => use fast SPICE.
 

jako123

Member level 5
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
82
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,286
Activity points
125
HSpice is quite fast - indeed - but not so comfortable!!!

there is no advantage with a disadvantage!


ciao
 

RC13

Member level 5
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
89
Helped
2
Reputation
4
Reaction score
2
Trophy points
1,288
Activity points
592
for a ams design,
1. at sub-block level (small block), use hspice to simulate, and try to estimate the higher level results, you should meet all the spec. at this level,
2. at fully system level, for functionality check, use hsim to verified.

you can actually forget about using spectre for ams, but you can use it for rf-ams design.
 

adanshen

Member level 1
Joined
Apr 3, 2003
Messages
33
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,286
Activity points
225
hsim and spectre both get accuracy problem, hsim take subcells as the same,
so it can speed up the simulation
 

obrian

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Apr 12, 2004
Messages
19
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,281
Activity points
208
I used ADiT and it does not have accuracy problem like HSIM.
With ADiT, I can go to many different modes.
Spice mode if I need accuracy.
Turbo mode if I want speed.
Subcircuit mode if I want full chip verfication with accuracy.
VPI/HDL mode if I want to do SoC simulation with a lot of A/D and D/A.


And sometimes I use ADiT-Turbo with Hspice's technology files too. =)
 

okguy

Full Member level 6
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
360
Helped
15
Reputation
30
Reaction score
9
Trophy points
1,298
Location
China
Activity points
2,645
Never heard about it!
Is there any University benchmark to compare it with Hsim, Nanosim, Starsim, ... in term of accuracy and speed for reference design such as PLL, AD/DAC or memory ?
 

Btrend

Advanced Member level 1
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
423
Helped
70
Reputation
140
Reaction score
14
Trophy points
1,298
Activity points
3,988
starsim is not so good as adit.
I had tried to verify my full chip simulation using starsim & adit,
my chip is 20% digital + 80% analog,
When using starsim, I should tried for many times what option make
its output "reasonable", there is always "un-resonalble" behavior using
starsim which make me spend a lot of waste time in debuging the "option".
But with adit, I can get the fast speed and still got the "resonable" result
with few options if needed.
 

take_care00

Junior Member level 2
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
23
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,281
Activity points
162
Hi,

Did anyone compared/used the latest HSIM version which is called by NASSDA as HSIM Plus?

According to Nassda the upgrade is provided free of charge for customers with maintenance agreement. The benchmark published in their website (http://www.nassda.com/hsim.html) is very impressive.

Did someone compared HSIM plus to Adit and the latest version of Nanosim (Nanosim got many improvments in 2003)?

Take care.
 

obrian

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Apr 12, 2004
Messages
19
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1,281
Activity points
208
I thought HSIM plus was just repackaged HSIM with "options"
I heard one of the options were SPICE netlist parser.. How are you going to run simulation if you don't purchase that option! hehe..
Probably my misunderstanding.. but I thought it was funny.

I heard HSPICE improved its speed by 25% but has anyone verificed this?
Nanosim (with starsim combined) should has a lot of improvements.
But among HSIM, Nanosim and ADiT, I think ADiT is the easiest to use.
I thought using ADiT was quite similar to using HSPICE.. (Which I used a lot during college years!)



take_care00 said:
Hi,

Did anyone compared/used the latest HSIM version which is called by NASSDA as HSIM Plus?

According to Nassda the upgrade is provided free of charge for customers with maintenance agreement. The benchmark published in their website (http://www.nassda.com/hsim.html) is very impressive.

Did someone compared HSIM plus to Adit and the latest version of Nanosim (Nanosim got many improvments in 2003)?

Take care.
 

tlihu

Full Member level 6
Joined
Jan 2, 2002
Messages
336
Helped
18
Reputation
40
Reaction score
13
Trophy points
1,298
Activity points
2,258
obrian said:
I thought HSIM plus was just repackaged HSIM with "options"
I heard one of the options were SPICE netlist parser.. How are you going to run simulation if you don't purchase that option! hehe..
Probably my misunderstanding.. but I thought it was funny.

I heard HSPICE improved its speed by 25% but has anyone verificed this?
Nanosim (with starsim combined) should has a lot of improvements.
But among HSIM, Nanosim and ADiT, I think ADiT is the easiest to use.
I thought using ADiT was quite similar to using HSPICE.. (Which I used a lot during college years!)



take_care00 said:
Hi,

Did anyone compared/used the latest HSIM version which is called by NASSDA as HSIM Plus?

According to Nassda the upgrade is provided free of charge for customers with maintenance agreement. The benchmark published in their website (http://www.nassda.com/hsim.html) is very impressive.

Did someone compared HSIM plus to Adit and the latest version of Nanosim (Nanosim got many improvments in 2003)?

Take care.
HSPICE 2004.03-SP1 runs faster than pervious version, I can feel that. However, I think "25% faster" is just another commercial terminology.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Toggle Sidebar

Part and Inventory Search

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Top