Can any tool simulate Ferrite material, I mean truly simulate without work around?

[wavenology]

I searched around the web for Ferrite material simulation in full-wave solver, there is some work around mentioned, but there is no direct solution. I want to get a knowledge if there is any tool that can truly model the ferrite material yet.

Thanks for bring the info.

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

What exactly do you mean with "truly model the ferrite material"?

 

[wavenology]

Ferrite material has a complex B and H relation, the permeability is time varying, discursive and non-linear. I have not seen any full-wave solver that can truly handle this type of material yet. Like I build arbitrary 3D models of ferrite material and the field solver can solve the field with interactions of this block.

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

the permeability is time varying

What do you mean by "time varying"? What would be the corresponding ferrite data sheet spec that you refer to?

 

[wavenology]

check this note on page 15,
**broken link removed**

When you apply a H field (generated by electric current loop) to the ferrite coil, the magnetic flux B will be different when H applied at different time. Say at t=0, You applied H of 1 A/m, B is 0.1 T for example, when at t=0.1s, you keep the H to be 1 A/m, B will change from 0.1 T as time goes on. Since the coil remembers its history. This make things quite complicated at least to me when model it in full-wave solver.

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

TY has simulator tools.

https://www.yuden.co.jp/ut/product/support/EMC_sim/

 

[wavenology]

Sunny: Thanks for providing the info. I've looked into it, but it is a circuit simulator, my situation is, the customer may use arbitrary shape of the ferrite material, the shape has to be designed, thus there is no equivalent circuit determined yet. I have to rely on a full-wave solver to model it.

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

This make things quite complicated at least to me when model it in full-wave solver.

Sure, but that hysteresis etc. is pretty basic stuff. From what I remember, ANSOFT included this more than ten years ago.

 

[wavenology]

Well, I've checked the tutorials, seems to me the model was simplified by biasing the device into certain constant magnetic field level then assume the permeability is constant. This is not convincing me. I do not know if nowadays things evolved or not.

 

[volker@muehlhaus]

Well, I've checked the tutorials, seems to me the model was simplified by biasing the device into certain constant magnetic field level then assume the permeability is constant. This is not convincing me. I do not know if nowadays things evolved or not.

Not sure which of their solvers uses which models. They do a lot of low frequency transformer stuff also, where these magnetic properties like hysterisis are relevant, and this is what they discussed in appnotes from ages ago. Not sure about HFSS for non-linear magnetic properties, but linear frequency dependent magnetic properties as specified by the ferrite manufacturers is certainly state of the art already.

 

[wavenology]

Thanks Volker, I agree with your comments. That is probably where we are now