Another tough 'elementary' question from my tutor

[n1cm0c]

Yeah, but that solution violates the equipartition principle...
Did you mention that to your tutor?

 

[jasmin_123]

Think of t=0K.

 

[ch1k0]

Think of t=0K.

" By the equipartition principle the total energy is equally distributed among the degrees of freedom."

https://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath606/kmath606.htm

oscillation with ZERO energy in system ?

your invention ?

 

[halls]

Hi Jasmine, I wonder what's the period of the oscillation... shouldn't it be 0? wouldn't an oscillation with T=0, have an infinite frequency?... wouldn't it stop being an oscillation then?

I would like to know the answer just for curiosity. This problem is really interesting to me indeed. If you could give an explanation for the value of the period, or a mathematical expression or something it would be great.

thanks!

 

[jasmin_123]

ch1k0, zero thermal energy does not mean zero total energy.

halls, T=0 and the infinite frequency do not disturb me, because the problem is
just mathematical abstraction. Mathematical, not physical.

Cheers!

 

[ch1k0]

ch1k0, zero thermal energy does not mean zero total energy.

halls, T=0 and the infinite frequency do not disturb me, because the problem is
just mathematical abstraction. Mathematical, not physical.

Cheers!

zero THERMAL energy => no carrier can move , oscillation impossible, your answer can no work

if THERMAL energy no zero => carrier can move , equipartition rules, no oscillation

invent problem to fit your answer ?

 

[jasmin_123]

"Zero THERMAL energy => no carrier can move".
"If THERMAL energy no zero => carrier can move".

Fudge.

 

[halls]

halls, T=0 and the infinite frequency do not disturb me, because the problem is just mathematical abstraction. Mathematical, not physical.

Erhm... i believe there is some paradox in your proposition. In such an oscillation, with infinite frequency, if I am not wrong, there will be infinite energy, thus, energy conservation can't be considered (thought it was a premise)...

What am I missing?

 

[teteamigo]

and what is the limit when R-->0.

For R-->0, the limit is: a half of the energy is dissipated.
But for an R=0, no energy is dissipated. This is singularity!

Oooooh!!!

We have allways dissipation when we charge a capacitor.

When the charges are taken to plates of a capacitor by electromotive force we add energy to the system of charges between the plates.

But the charges forced by energy source (produce electromotive force) receives energy to do it.

The charges suffer allways a desacceleration to rest in plates.


The dissipation of the energy is a consequence of this.

Heat, Electromagnetic Radiation, etc



We can't stop in Snow with a car when we see a obstacle!!!

 

[ch1k0]

"Zero THERMAL energy => no carrier can move".
"If THERMAL energy no zero => carrier can move".

Fudge.

please explain english.

you invent impossible answer ?

 

[jasmin_123]

Fudge means nonsense.

 

[ch1k0]

Fudge means nonsense.

your solution makes no sense ?

or carriers in absolute zero move in your invented solution ?

 

[FvM]

Hello,

I think that the above posted remark from the textbook should be noticed. It says, that even with no energy losses in the system, part of the energy would be transmitted as electromagnetic waves. If loss resistance is assumed as zero, the time constant is also zero, resulting in a current flow with infinite bandwith. Thus any energy amount necessary for charge conservation law have it's way could be radiated. As a result, the final voltages are identical to the real world case with R > 0.

Regards,
Frank

 

[jasmin_123]

Fudge means nonsense.

your solution makes no sense ?

or carriers in absolute zero move in your invented solution ?

They do move as in many superconducting devices.

 

[ch1k0]

Fudge means nonsense.

your solution makes no sense ?

or carriers in absolute zero move in your invented solution ?

They do move as in many superconducting devices.

not absolute zero...

"Though it is not possible to cool any substance to 0 K,[2] scientists have made great advancements in achieving temperatures close to absolute zero..."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

read , learn , talk.
order important.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipartition

invented problem for solution.
wrong order!

 

[jasmin_123]

ch1k0, do you insist that an electron at absolute zero temperature cannot move in an electric field?

 

[halls]

ch1k0, do you insist that an electron at absolute zero temperature cannot move in an electric field?

in the instant the electron starts moving, the temperature is absolute zero no more... it will be 0,0000000000000000001 K if you like, but not 0

 

[jasmin_123]

ch1k0, do you insist that an electron at absolute zero temperature cannot move in an electric field?

in the instant the electron starts moving, the temperature is absolute zero no more... it will be 0,0000000000000000001 K if you like, but not 0

If an electron moves not randomly, for example, it deterministically drifts in an
electric field then its temperature does not increase. It will remain absolute zero.

ch1k0 and halls, ask physicists if you do not believe me. I have asked some of them today,
just to be on the safe side.

Take care!

 

[n1cm0c]

ch1k0, do you insist that an electron at absolute zero temperature cannot move in an electric field?

in the instant the electron starts moving, the temperature is absolute zero no more... it will be 0,0000000000000000001 K if you like, but not 0

If an electron moves not randomly, for example, it deterministically drifts in an
electric field then its temperature does not increase. It will remain absolute zero.

ch1k0 and halls, ask physicists if you do not believe me. I have asked some of them today,
just to be on the safe side.

Take care!

The original thread is diverging...

Any comments on the elegant math to resolve the two capacitor paradox that the *physicists* published in the papers I posted ? It seems more relevant... I thought it kind of neat, and they use the word "fudge"!

Absolute zero is a theoretical state, so many funny things happen. Quantum effects, you know. It's impossible to reach this state, so you should ask a theoretical physicist (a condensed matter one, avoid the cosmologists...)

BTW, you should consider yourself pursuing theoretical physics as a career...

Assuming classical model (bohr atom, etc) I would say that no current would flow in any material where all the outer shell electrons are in the ground state (filled valence band).
Think semiconductors...

Metals would conduct, since there are always electrons in the conduction band.

*Some* materials would super-conduct, but then you need to get out of the classical model...

Since one can pick and choose which laws are valid for your mathematical abstraction, one can probably define an infinite number of mathematical solutions.

 

[jasmin_123]

Post 05 Mar 2008 17:02