+ Post New Thread
Results 1 to 20 of 20

13th June 2019, 07:09 #1
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
Welcome,
Plans to design an adjustable power supply based on the SG3525 controller with the possibility of voltage regulation ~ 030V and current ~ 020A.
I have a working power stage, which is able to give over 20A at 30V, while I have a problem with the implementation of the feedback loop.
I use an external LM324 operational amplifier which realizes two feedback loops  voltage and current.
I used a type 3 compensator but the effects do not fully satisfy me. The test load is about 1ohm and at 5V and 5A the transformer is quite loud, as if some of the control runs have disappeared and the asymmetry on the transformer core has been created. at 15V and 15A everything is working quietly.
Can you direct me how the feedback loop should look like so that it is possible to realize my assumptions?
There is a lot of impulse power supplies on the market that work very well in a wide range of output voltages and are very quiet and have very low output noise eg gophertcps3205

13th June 2019, 07:31 #2
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
may not be feedback loop  per se  if you have a buck derived converter ( includes, half bridge, full bridge, push pull ) then you will need slope comp in the control if you exceed 50% of possible gate ON time ... you have not given enough info in your posted question ... assuming you are using current mode control  if voltage mode it is likely that your output LC res freq is quite low and your control will need feed forward to balance that  else the control loop will need to be 5x lower than fres of the o/p filter ...

13th June 2019, 08:32 #3
 Join Date
 Jan 2008
 Location
 Bochum, Germany
 Posts
 44,658
 Helped
 13587 / 13587
 Points
 256,096
 Level
 100
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
SG3525 means voltage mode, there should be no need for slope compensation, neither with average current control.
Did you analyze feedback loop transfer function and particularly and phase margin?

13th June 2019, 08:34 #4
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
Easy peasy
I place the PCB diagram of the power part and the PCB diagram of the control part
The resonant frequency of the LC filter is fairly low at 184Hz.
In general, I counted the compensation factors in the following way:
Cout = 3 x 1000uF
Total ESR = 8.3mohm
Lout = 250uH
fESR = 6392 Hz
fLC = 184Hz
fz1 = fz2 = 184Hz
fp0 = 260Hz
fp1 = fESR = 6392Hz
fp2 = 1/2 fsw = 20kHz
frcoss = 1/10 * fsw = 4kHz
Vramp = 2.8V
Vin = 43V (output voltage after diodes)
fsw = 40kHz
C1 = 30.6nF > I used 33nF
C2 = 42nF > I used 42nF
R2 = 28,3kohm > I used 27kohm
C3 = 297.6pF > I used 300pF
R3 = 600ohm > I used 560ohm
Maybe I just wrongly calculated possibly bad values for calculations?

Advertisement

13th June 2019, 08:48 #5
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
Pin 10 can be used for cycle by cycle current limiting on the 3525 & 3525A ....

13th June 2019, 09:53 #6
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
FVM
Did you analyze feedback?

13th June 2019, 10:45 #7
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
shunt resistor should be before the o/p filter caps  else you have an extra delay in the current loop you don't need ...
   Updated   
the current loop should be much slower ( 5x ) than the volt loop so they don't try to fight each other at the same freq at the crossover point. Also see post #2
   Updated   
I do not see the feedforward part of the V loop aimed at the output filter  given the o/p filter is 183Hz, tricky to have the V loop faster than this ....

13th June 2019, 11:03 #8
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
Easy peasy
The diagram is a 47uH choke, but currently I run tests on a 250uH choke. I thought that too small inductance is a problem.
It will apply the current loop 5 x slower than the voltage, but the issue of the frequency of the voltage loop remains.
Could you tell me what the frequency of the voltage loop should be?

Advertisement

13th June 2019, 22:07 #9
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
start with 3x slower than the o/p filter ...

Advertisement

14th June 2019, 10:47 #10
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
start with 3x slower than the o/p filter ...
Okay, but please guide me from which frequency the crossover loop should be 3 times slower?
Should fcrossover be 3 times slower than fp0?
Should fcrossover be 3 times slower than fLC?

14th June 2019, 22:19 #11
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
fLC  which is the only freq of interest in the power ckt ( apart from output ESL/ESR with C i.e. self res )

15th June 2019, 11:02 #12
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
I carried out tests for the new frequency fcross = 1/3 fLc > 61Hz. Screen shots of the oscilloscope load approximately 1ohm. Measurement made at the output of the inverter.
2.5A Load
5A Load
7.5A Load
10A Load
15A Load
20A Load
You can see that the loop is unstable, the transformer stops squeaking only at 7.5A load

15th June 2019, 21:35 #13
 Join Date
 Feb 2014
 Posts
 714
 Helped
 243 / 243
 Points
 5,173
 Level
 17
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
Type III compensation should follow standard practice: two zeros placed in front of the LC cutoff, 2 poles following later. Intersil has the best app note https://www.renesas.com/us/en/www/do...rief/tb417.pdf. I'd strongly suggest simulating, if only some pieces. For example LTSpice will give you a great bode plot of your error amplifiers so you can check that you implemented the poles and zeros correctly.
Note that you don't need type III. Dominant pole can be ok too (set a single pole <1/5th or so of the LC) and may be easier to get up and running.
I don't necessarily see instability yet. I see unexplained ripple and scope noise. What's input voltage look like, what's a step response look like.
Did you describe how you implemented your current loop? There are many options in a voltage mode converter. What's its output of the current error amplifier going too?

15th June 2019, 22:01 #14
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
looks like your power supply source is running out of steam and supplying ripple to the input ...

15th June 2019, 22:38 #15
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
I based all calculations of the loop on two sources:
1. Switching Power Supplies A to Z Sanjaya Maniktala
2. https://www.biricha.com/uploads/8/9/...part2.b__2.pdf
From what I read the type III compensator improves the stability of the loop because it includes fESR.
With loop simulations I had a lot of problems, I do not know if you need to simulate the entire converter model or just the operational amplifier itself. However, I was able to find the SG3525 model and draw the entire converter model. Of course, for each calculated hardware configuration, using the abovementioned sources, the inverter was excellent.
Currently, it tests only voltage loops to not mix. The noise that can be seen on the oscillograms is actually very large. Perhaps this is due to the bad running of paths.
Converter diagrams are in the post No. 4.
If I understood correctly a single pole (fp0?) Should be <1/5 of the LC point, and what should be the frequency of the fcrossover control loop? 1/10 of frequency switching?
As for measuring the output from the error amplifier, it is also strongly noisy. I do not know if this is due to the measurement of the oscilloscope where the probe does the antenna, or maybe the problem is PCB paths.
I will add photos of PCBs to make it easier to see how everything is designed
Thank you for your help and I am asking for your understanding, this is my first converter with feedback.
As you can see the tiles have already gone a bit, the crooked elements of the compensator result only from a huge amount of soldering. In the testing phase, I did not care about aesthetics.
1 members found this post helpful.

Yesterday, 04:43 #16
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
you cannot probe the error amp output without introducing noise  or using a 10k resistor on the probe tip  there is a filtering effect  but you can see some thing...
   Updated   
Also  your bridge rectifier will need heatsinking ...
   Updated   
your fets are kinda a long way from any decoupling caps  this will create turn off noise ... and overvolt spikes...
   Updated   
Is there a schematic?

Advertisement

Yesterday, 10:56 #17
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem

Yesterday, 14:04 #18
 Join Date
 Feb 2014
 Posts
 714
 Helped
 243 / 243
 Points
 5,173
 Level
 17
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
Yeah the switching waveforms look ok.
Another suggestion: Run open voltage loop. Reconfigure the eamp as a fixed voltage follower. This will isolate eamp problems from other problems.
For simulation use LTSpice and start with the UniversalOpamp2  a model with supply rails and parameters for gainbandwidth etc.

Yesterday, 21:25 #19
 Join Date
 Aug 2015
 Posts
 1,424
 Helped
 524 / 524
 Points
 8,890
 Level
 22
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
yes  they look good  at light load ...(!)

Today, 07:12 #20
 Join Date
 Jun 2019
 Posts
 9
 Helped
 1 / 1
 Points
 57
 Level
 1
Re: HalfBridge 030V, 020A Feedback loop problem
asdf44
When I find a moment, I will try to carry out such an experiment by setting rigidly pwm.
Easy peasy
I just meant the primary side waveforms. Because the secondary side waveforms look weak to me even with a small load.
+ Post New Thread
Please login