Questions SSD

[John rodrigues]

I never get an SSD but I know a few things about it, Is it worth buying an SSD knowing that it uses flash memory and this type of memory has a limit cycle of erasing / writing being q after that it is unusable? HD does not have this limit


SSD Goldenfir is good or bad?

 

[betwixt]

We can't comment on individual devices, the same drives are branded with many names.
I use SSD extensively and after about five years I have seen no failures. Manufacturers generally guarantee them for several years so they must have confidence in their reliability. Given their much faster speed and lower power consumption I would recommend using them. I do keep a full backup of all my files on a different machine though.

Brian.

 

[John rodrigues]

Goldenfir uses Flash nand: TLC is good or bad lifetime write? he uses coontroller> 2244/2246/2256/2258

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

HD does not have this limit

Is this the case? I don't know.

But I have seen many HDDs to fail. More than SSDs. Although I can't say SSDs are generally more safe.

All I can say: sSDs can fail, HDDs can fail. They have different sources of failure.
An idea incontrast to your idea: Is it worth buying an HDD knowing that it uses mechanics insude and this type of mechanics has a limited lifetime after that it is unusable?

I think it's on you decide whether to use the one or the other system.

Klaus

 

[John rodrigues]

Goldenfir uses Flash nand: TLC is good or bad lifetime write? he uses coontroller> 2244/2246/2256/2258

 

[betwixt]

TLC went into commercial use over 10 years ago and has no reported problems so I wouldn't worry.
The smaller Goldenfir drives are incredibly slow compared to the bigger ones so I would guess they use 'older' memory devices.

Brian.

 

[Kripton2035]

don't mess time with unknown brands. you will need a real manufacturer behind in case of warranty need...
I sell and install ssd's for 10 years now. at that time 500Gb ssd were around $2000 each. now they are less than $100 (samsung brand)
they are incredibly more robust and 10x faster than hdd. I almost repaired no more than 5 ssd's in 10 years
(while changing around 3 hdd for an ssd in the same period)
buy a reputable brand, to get a real warranty.
and don't forget the backups (they can be on hdd, but they MUST be and made periodically, automatically is better)

 

[unbuildpain]

I never get an SSD but I know a few things about it, Is it worth buying an SSD knowing that it uses flash memory and this type of memory has a limit cycle of erasing / writing being q after that it is unusable? HD does not have this limit

SSD Goldenfir is good or bad?

SSDs are faster and consume less power. They are definitely worth buying. Flash memory has limited write/erase cycles, manufacturers usually mention this on their product page, how many GBs or TBs you can write and erase per day for a set number of years. For example, if the manufacturer says 5 years warranty for 70GB write/erase per day, if you write and erase more than 70GB per day, say 140GB per day, it's life span will be reduced from 5 years to 2.5 years. If on the other hand if you write and erase only 35GB per day, you can expect your SSD to last 10 years, twice as long as the warranty provided. Manufacturers also mention another condition which says something like if the write/erase cycle has been more than some set limit, say 1 PB, the 5 years warrant is void.

I never heard about Goldenfir, buy from a reputable and already established brands like Western Digital, Sandisk, Samsung(already mentioned). But again, if Goldenfir has deals with shops near you or has offices near your locality, they might also provide warranty. It is really difficult to get warranty from lesser known brands.

SSDs are more susceptible to EMP, because their PCB and flash memory are enclosed within a thin plastic case, even a low powered EMP near them would erase or damage them permanently. If your device is new, you can also use NVMe, these are believed to be even faster than SSDs because they are closer to CPU.

 

[ads-ee]

EMP erases flash? Sure it can damage the parts due to inducing large current/voltage spikes, but erasing them?

If some electromagnetic effect caused the flash to be "erased" the part would have been damaged.

you can also use NVMe, these are believed to be even faster than SSDs because they are closer to CPU.

NVMe (M.2) is faster because it is connected to the PCIe bus (of the uP) and not SATA which is connected to something other than the uP.

 

[unbuildpain]

EMP erases flash? Sure it can damage the parts due to inducing large current/voltage spikes, but erasing them?

If some electromagnetic effect caused the flash to be "erased" the part would have been damaged.

I've seen videos on YouTube where people used low powered EMP on calculators, it wiped the memory of the calculators, and when turned on again, it functioned without problems. So I think low powered EMP might erase as well as damage. A low powered EMP might erase if the SSD is not powered up, and it might be damaged if it is powered up.

NVMe (M.2) is faster because it is connected to the PCIe bus (of the uP) and not SATA which is connected to something other than the uP.

And they are not closer to the CPU?

 

[ads-ee]

I've seen videos on YouTube where people used low powered EMP on calculators, it wiped the memory of the calculators, and when turned on again, it functioned without problems. So I think low powered EMP might erase as well as damage. A low powered EMP might erase if the SSD is not powered up, and it might be damaged if it is powered up.

I'd have to see this "fact" from some random idi*t on youtube. So many of the facts, inventiions, or proofs on youtube are not even worth the time to watch and are produced by people with no (or limited) technical knowledge. Just look on youtube for perpetual motion machines...

And they are not closer to the CPU?

you said "believed to be faster"....it's a fact they are faster unless the vendors design is garbage.

 

[unbuildpain]

I'd have to see this "fact" from some random idi*t on youtube. So many of the facts, inventiions, or proofs on youtube are not even worth the time to watch and are produced by people with no (or limited) technical knowledge. Just look on youtube for perpetual motion machines...

You are stereotyping the entire YouTube electronics community based on few bad apples. In this wide world, everyday who knows how many electronics graduates, post-graduates and doctorates come into the market, due to limited number of jobs, some of them are unemployed and post on YouTube to hone their skills and attract employers. Many of these creations are easy to build and useful for laypersons. I've posted below a video showing what I said, it is functioning EMP because it causes temporary disruption, just as an EMP should and it is low powered. I'm sure you know the theory behind EMP, and it will make you see the one posted below is a valid device.

you said "believed to be faster"....it's a fact they are faster unless the vendors design is garbage.

I was looking at a comparison between 120GB Western Digital Green M.2 and a Samsung SSD and they both seemed pretty equal in performance.

 

[betwixt]

I was looking at a comparison between 120GB Western Digital Green M.2 and a Samsung SSD and they both seemed pretty equal in performance.

True but both are many times faster than HDD.

I agree there are some good technical articles on Youtube but they are vastly out-numbered by idiots trying to attract clicks. The EMP gun is nothing of the sort, it is a small PSU with a coil across its output. The coil produces a magnetic field that induces a voltage into nearby conductors, it will interfere with almost anything electronic, not necessarily in a destructive manner but it might disrupt normal operation. it has a very short range and I would guess is itself quite unreliable. Yes, it might also upset an SSD if you place the coil right over it but it would do the same to a HDD. SSD's are immune to strong magnetic fields while HDDs are easily erased, it is all a matter of how close you can get to them to induce a large enough voltage..

Incidentally, have you noticed that 99% of the fake technical videos include a hot-melt glue gun in them. I wonder how many professional and even hobby constructors hold their devices together with glue.

Brian.

 

[unbuildpain]

True but both are many times faster than HDD.

I agree there are some good technical articles on Youtube but they are vastly out-numbered by idiots trying to attract clicks. The EMP gun is nothing of the sort, it is a small PSU with a coil across its output. The coil produces a magnetic field that induces a voltage into nearby conductors, it will interfere with almost anything electronic, not necessarily in a destructive manner but it might disrupt normal operation. it has a very short range and I would guess is itself quite unreliable. Yes, it might also upset an SSD if you place the coil right over it but it would do the same to a HDD. SSD's are immune to strong magnetic fields while HDDs are easily erased, it is all a matter of how close you can get to them to induce a large enough voltage..

HDDs have quite a sturdy metal cover over them, wouldn't it provide a kind of buffer from the EMP from such a low powered device as shown in the video. If the HDD had three metalic disks, if such an EMP was used on top of the HDD, it might only reach the first metallic disk, leaving the lower two disks undamaged. They might wreck havoc on the PCB of the HDD which is usually exposed. I also read that consumer HDDs are also used in space missions, and they even mention on the HDDs how many G's it can withstand. Wouldn't something like that be EMP proofed, at least to some extent?

Incidentally, have you noticed that 99% of the fake technical videos include a hot-melt glue gun in them. I wonder how many professional and even hobby constructors hold their devices together with glue.

Brian.

Yes, I have noticed that people in such videos make use glue gun. I think there are quite a few professionals who use glue guns, I've seen them on PCBs in TVs, speakers from Bose, Onkyo, Sony, etc, DVD players from Philips, LG. Those videos are primarily directed towards audiences in Indian sub-continent, where the cost of living, availability of resources are different, they make use of frugal innovations.

 

[FvM]

As stated, most recent HDD have an exposed controller PCB at one side, they aren't shielded against strong electromagnetic interferences. So far their better immunity compared to SSD is yet unsubstantiated, I think. Similarly, we see mechanical failure of some HDD in servers after a few years, thus I'm neither unsure about the claimed lifetime advantage.
In most SSD use cases, you don't exhaust the lifetime by executing too many write/erase cycles. But there are probably cases with extreme SSD wear.

 

[ads-ee]

I was looking at a comparison between 120GB Western Digital Green M.2 and a Samsung SSD and they both seemed pretty equal in performance.

FYI, the Western Digital is a SATA drive, not a NVMe which stands for Non-Volatile Memory Express (and interfaces with PCIe) it is much faster than SATA, which you originally stated " you can also use NVMe, these are believed to be even faster than SSDs because they are closer to CPU."

I agree with betwixt that video isn't showing an EMP gun it's just generating a magnetic field. You could do the exact same thing with a bench top power supply and a coil of wire and cause disruptive interference. Besides your original claim about the memory being wiped wasn't the case from what I saw in that video. It looks more like the calculator shut off probably due to some voltage variation on some circuit that cause it to reset the calculator.

I still say it won't erase flash, just by how flash works, a large enough EMP that could cause a flash cell to erase would damage the part. Flash cell programming voltage is something around 12V and is produced by an on die buck-boost converter. To induce 12V with some sort of EMP device would also cause other parts of the flash device to experience induced 12V with the associated currents on stuff that normally only sees 1.5V so poof the circuits are damaged by a huge over voltage. Even if they've decreased the programming voltage on the latest generation of flash it would still be significantly higher than the logic voltages used and still uses a buck-boost converter to supply that voltage (which if induced anywhere else would damage the device).

In most SSD use cases, you don't exhaust the lifetime by executing too many write/erase cycles. But there are probably cases with extreme SSD wear.

Besides this modern SSDs have a program built into the microcontroller firmware that runs on the drive that performs wear leveling on the drive. So they are much less prone to premature wear.

 

[unbuildpain]

FYI, the Western Digital is a SATA drive, not a NVMe which stands for Non-Volatile Memory Express (and interfaces with PCIe) it is much faster than SATA, which you originally stated " you can also use NVMe, these are believed to be even faster than SSDs because they are closer to CPU."

And they are not faster?

I agree with betwixt that video isn't showing an EMP gun it's just generating a magnetic field. You could do the exact same thing with a bench top power supply and a coil of wire and cause disruptive interference. Besides your original claim about the memory being wiped wasn't the case from what I saw in that video. It looks more like the calculator shut off probably due to some voltage variation on some circuit that cause it to reset the calculator.

I was unable to find that video, so I posted this. And it shows similar thing. You cannot change the definition of EMP to suit your purpose, it is an EMP device, it causes electromagnetic pulse, a low powered one. If you want I can post videos of calculators being completely damaged by such a device.

I still say it won't erase flash, just by how flash works, a large enough EMP that could cause a flash cell to erase would damage the part. Flash cell programming voltage is something around 12V and is produced by an on die buck-boost converter. To induce 12V with some sort of EMP device would also cause other parts of the flash device to experience induced 12V with the associated currents on stuff that normally only sees 1.5V so poof the circuits are damaged by a huge over voltage. Even if they've decreased the programming voltage on the latest generation of flash it would still be significantly higher than the logic voltages used and still uses a buck-boost converter to supply that voltage (which if induced anywhere else would damage the device).

The only way to find if it will be erased or damaged would be to do an EMP near an SSD.

Besides this modern SSDs have a program built into the microcontroller firmware that runs on the drive that performs wear leveling on the drive. So they are much less prone to premature wear.

SSDs durability is indicated by write/erase cycles, manufacturers mention this on their product page.

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

You cannot change the definition of EMP to suit your purpose, it is an EMP device, it causes electromagnetic pulse, a low powered one. If you want I can post videos of calculators being completely damaged by such a device.

One can find almost any video for almost anything you want.
You may believe them or not.
Did you test it on your own?

From my experience:
I´m designing industrial electronics for over 20 years now. Some of the devices are used in a chemical plant to measure current. They use microcontrollers including FLASH. They are mounted next to "wires" with up to 6000A RMS AC continously .. with high dV/dt and high dI/dt edges. The "wire" is a solid copper pipe with more than 100mm in diameter and additionaly water runs through them for cooling. The systems are running for more than 15 years 24/7 without a fail. Not even a short one.

What do you think: Do I belive in videos that show a battery powered "EMP gun" with a coil made of 1mm diameter copper wire ... able to immediatley kill an electronic device?

Klaus

 

[betwixt]

Interestingly, I placed my mobile phone on top of a calculator a moment ago. The calculator display cleared as the phone sent a beacon message. Looks like Samsung must now be in the personal arms market! I don't think my phone qualifies as a weapon, at least not in the conventional sense, even if some junk mailers seem to think it is!

Brian.

 

[ads-ee]

Those cheap solar calculators aren't even close to being immune to EMI, so no surprise that you phone could cause it to reset. That posted video doesn't prove anything except how cheaply made those calculators are. I've had those calculator go haywire while just using them to add two numbers, without a EMP gun pointed at them.

I'd wager if you tried doing this to an old HP like a 16C, 41C, or a 48SX/48GX, etc it wouldn't reset at all.

I wonder if my phone could cause those calculators to reset without sending a beacon message if I enabled the built-in Qi charger mode on my phone.

--- Updated Aug 20, 2020 ---

You must like to argue for no other reason than to argue...

And they are not faster?

That wasn't the point I was making, maybe you should read my post more carefully. You were claiming wrongly that the NVMe is no faster than an SATA SSD drive and used the 120GB Western Digital Green M.2 to claim that it matches the performance of a Samsung SATA SSD.

So make up you mind either talk about SATA M.2 drives or NVMe M.2 drives or SATA SSD drives, but don't go switching between them like they are all the same thing.

The only way to find if it will be erased or damaged would be to do an EMP near an SSD.

I don't think you understand how much charge is required to change the state of a flash cell. To generate that much charge externally from an EMP will likely damage the rest of the die way before the charge in the flash cell is changed.

SSDs durability is indicated by write/erase cycles, manufacturers mention this on their product page.

So what is the point you are trying to make?

The durability of a flash drive is DIRECTLY related to how well they designed their wear leveling algorithm and how many write/erase cycles the flash chips used in the SSD are capable of. The manufactures base their numbers on those two aspects. You seem to be saying the manufacture can miraculously take a flash part with 100,000 write/erase cycles and can then turn around an put the durability of their drive is 50 years....
Well I guess they could if they claim you only change data on your drive ~5 times a day.

The point I'm making is a manufacturer can put almost any claim they want on their brochures if nobody can prove otherwise. And things like drives are very hard to prove they meet the durability quoted on the product documentation. i.e. how may people are going to go buy a $150 1TB SSD and write/erase the drive over and over till it dies just so they can claim their drive didn't meet the durability mentioned? If you decide to do this start a blog here and report your findings for every drive on the market it will be very useful information for the rest of us.