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Printed PCB inductance and capaptiance design help

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dz99

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Hi all!

I would like to design RF printed PCB inductances/capatiances (mostly inductances). From 310 MHz to 1 GHz, FR4 with 35 um copper (for instance).

Has anybody good hints, where to start? (I have EM simulators).

Designer program kits, tutorials, literatures(pdf:)) are welcome!

Thanx!
Zoltan

ps.: I will honor your help with points of course! :)
 

Eugen_E

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Download AppCAD from Agilent/ HP. It has many useful design options for printed L, C, microstrip, stripline, and it's free ..., also RFSim 99. And of course, Ansoft Designer, and others,but these are expensive
 

    dz99

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dz99

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Thanks Eugen! I will look for it!

Added after 45 minutes:

Eugen! I've downloaded the AppCAD V3.0. But I coudn't find any L, or C design worksheets. Have you any idea about it?
 

emadi

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one of the best softwares for this application is ansoft designer.
you can simulate any planar em structure by it.
It's help document is very good and available in this forum.
If you learn working with this software you can simulate all 2d structures...but If you need simulating 3D structures...HFSS is vey good.
be successful
 

    dz99

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drabos

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I recommend Agilent ADS.
But you can solve your problem in any commercial RF designer software. Come on, it is easy :)).
Anyway there is a book about lumped elements in RF design. Buy it or get it and you can get the answers for all the questions of you.
 

    dz99

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dz99

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Thank you Mr. Drabos!
It was really helpful! I will try between Christmas and new years day! :p


drabos said:
I recommend Agilent ADS.
But you can solve your problem in any commercial RF designer software. Come on, it is easy :)).
Anyway there is a book about lumped elements in RF design. Buy it or get it and you can get the answers for all the questions of you.
 

drabos

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I checked my bookshelf and the book what I recommend:
Inder Bahl
Lumped Element for RF and Microwave Circuits
Artech House.
I really recommend to read it.
Pleas do not forget FR-4 is a crappy material :), it is not duroid. The epsilon r has frequency dependency and because of the manufactoritation a huge deviation.
That's why I recommend you Agilent ADS. You can run Yield, Monte Carlo Analysis and Optimalization. Maybe you can make a geometry what does not need tuning.
 

    dz99

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dz99

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Thank you Mr. Drabos! You could be a very wise engineer regarding RF! I wish I could be wiser too during my practical work.

In my country there is an old aphorism: Ne feledd, a kacsák előtt mindig legyen víz!

Regards,
Zoltan

drabos said:
I checked my bookshelf and the book what I recommend:
Inder Bahl
Lumped Element for RF and Microwave Circuits
Artech House.
I really recommend to read it.
Pleas do not forget FR-4 is a crappy material :), it is not duroid. The epsilon r has frequency dependency and because of the manufactoritation a huge deviation.
That's why I recommend you Agilent ADS. You can run Yield, Monte Carlo Analysis and Optimalization. Maybe you can make a geometry what does not need tuning.
 

danoz

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you should know that FR4 has large loses in high frequency, and it's parameters are largely effected by temp.
 

dz99

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yes I know. My applications are under 1 GHz, so FR4 is ok for that! Considering FR4 inhomogeneity, for this freq it doesn't matter (inductance-->H field). It would be more important in case (printed capacitors-->E field, inhom. FR4) I think.

danoz said:
you should know that FR4 has large loses in high frequency, and it's parameters are largely effected by temp.
 

drabos

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actually you are thinking in a right way if you consider an ideal inducatnce :) in this case there is no effect of the epsilon r :)
But you know, practical life is not so ideal :)
(for example thinking in the capacitance between the coils etc. )
 

dz99

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OK, I know. This is the reason for the complett EM simulation :) Then producting->measuring->start again

there is a trivial reason in commerce electronics for the PCB FR4 inductances: they are CHEAP! :)

drabos said:
actually you are thinking in a right way if you consider an ideal inducatnce :) in this case there is no effect of the epsilon r :)
But you know, practical life is not so ideal :)
(for example thinking in the capacitance between the coils etc. )
 

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