Welcome to EDAboard.com

Welcome to our site! EDAboard.com is an international Electronic Discussion Forum focused on EDA software, circuits, schematics, books, theory, papers, asic, pld, 8051, DSP, Network, RF, Analog Design, PCB, Service Manuals... and a whole lot more! To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.

Register Log in

How to select a Frequency Multiplier (minicircuit)

John.Jin1990

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Messages
18
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1
Activity points
162
Hello,
I intend to buy this frequency multipier . My question is about its input power and conversion loss.
As you can see the datashtee, it has been mentioned that input power is between 22-24 and Max input power is 25dbm. Does it mean this device works when its input power is about 22-24 dbm?
if the input power is X-dbm and based on the conversion loss for X5 (FC5), For example Y-dbm) we take (X-Y) dbm in output for FC5?

Thanks.
 

danadakk

Advanced Member level 3
Joined
Mar 26, 2018
Messages
758
Helped
148
Reputation
295
Reaction score
149
Trophy points
43
Activity points
3,631
Hello,
I intend to buy this frequency multipier . My question is about its input power and conversion loss.
As you can see the datashtee, it has been mentioned that input power is between 22-24 and Max input power is 25dbm. Does it mean this device works when its input power is about 22-24 dbm?
if the input power is X-dbm and based on the conversion loss for X5 (FC5), For example Y-dbm) we take (X-Y) dbm in output for FC5?

Thanks.
The way the datasheet is written sure looks like specs are for 22 dbm <= input < =24 dbm.

That being said I would have normally considered 24 dbm a max spec and the datasheet
characterization at max power levels worse case. But lower levels fine.....? Not uncommon
a device is built for a perceived market/application, so test conditions reflect this.

I would contact their tech support to clear this up. While your at it ask for characterization data
at lower power levels....

Regards, Dana.
 
Last edited:

G4BCH

Full Member level 5
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
301
Helped
109
Reputation
218
Reaction score
81
Trophy points
1,308
Activity points
3,863
>>Does it mean this device works when its input power is about 22-24 dbm?
It means that the device is characterised between 22 & 24Bm. It will still work if the input power is lower, but the loss will be higher together with the unwanted spurii. If the input power is reduced much below the recommnended level the conversion loss will start to increase quite rapidly. Don't excede the maximum input, from my experience of similar components there will be some margin above the maximum before the device fails, but you're on your own above the maximum.

MiniCircuits data sheets show typical performance data, and again from experience the performance you get will be quite close to that shown on the plots.

>> if the input power is X-dbm and based on the conversion loss for X5 (FC5), For example Y-dbm) we take (X-Y) dbm in output for FC5?
Yes
i.e 100MHz input at 22dBm, 0dBm Output at 500MHz, and with 24dBm input, 2.55dBm out.
You may be able to coax a little more out of it by tuning the output.
 

vfone

Advanced Member level 5
Joined
Oct 10, 2001
Messages
5,230
Helped
1,538
Reputation
3,077
Reaction score
1,152
Trophy points
1,393
Activity points
33,135
Does it mean this device works when its input power is about 22-24 dbm?
In all the plots in the datasheet is written clear that the input power is +22dBm and +24dBm.
 

John.Jin1990

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Messages
18
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1
Activity points
162
Thank you very much for your comments.
Yes, I mean in this small range of input power (22-24 dBm) small deviation in input power would damage or increase the conversion loss of this frequency multiplier which is not acceptable in many operations. As Dana explained 24dbm is about the maximum value of this mixer and 1dbm to 23dbm(from 22dbm) is not usual/practical for a frequency multiplier.
 

FvM

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
47,971
Helped
14,147
Reputation
28,553
Reaction score
12,834
Trophy points
1,393
Location
Bochum, Germany
Activity points
278,274
24dbm is about the maximum value of this mixer and 1dbm to 23dbm(from 22dbm) is not usual/practical for a frequency multiplier.
No problem if you get multipliers with wider level range from other vendors. Do you? Please help us to learn what's usual for a frequency multiplier. Otherwise consider automatic level control for the driving oscillator/amplifier.
 

John.Jin1990

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Messages
18
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1
Activity points
162
Thank you very much, Could you introduce me to some vendors? because I've seen only mini-circuit X5 products.
 

vfone

Advanced Member level 5
Joined
Oct 10, 2001
Messages
5,230
Helped
1,538
Reputation
3,077
Reaction score
1,152
Trophy points
1,393
Activity points
33,135
 
  • Like
Reactions: FvM

John.Jin1990

Junior Member level 1
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
Messages
18
Helped
0
Reputation
0
Reaction score
0
Trophy points
1
Activity points
162
Thank you very much for your time and sites you have mentioned.
I need a Frequency multiplier X5 with the 10Mhz to 500Mhz. All the Frequency multipliers in the above sites doesn't satisfy my need.
 

vfone

Advanced Member level 5
Joined
Oct 10, 2001
Messages
5,230
Helped
1,538
Reputation
3,077
Reaction score
1,152
Trophy points
1,393
Activity points
33,135
In the old app note from HP shown below, you can find at page 3 (fig.6) how to build a x5 frequency multiplier from 100MHz to 500MHz using two PIN diodes.

In place of the HSMP-3822 PIN diodes from Broadcom you can use BAP64 from NXP, which support even more input power:

The advantage of designing your own frequency multiplier is that you can tune it for desire harmonic rejection.
 

BradtheRad

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
13,890
Helped
2,757
Reputation
5,512
Reaction score
2,665
Trophy points
1,393
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Activity points
103,639
Commonly mentioned is the method of triggering a resonant circuit which is tuned to the desired multiple of the incoming frequency.
Of course it's easier to use this method if LC values are adjustable.

frequency multiplier 10 MHz PNP LC tank 50 MHz output.png
 

biff44

Advanced Member level 5
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Messages
4,852
Helped
1,354
Reputation
2,704
Reaction score
1,035
Trophy points
1,393
Location
New England, USA
Activity points
36,625
it has some diodes arranged in a fashion that clips the sinewave input to give you strong 3rd, 5th, and 7th harmonics.
since this is a LARGE SIGNAL effect (clipping a sine wave), you need to have a large voltage swing on the diodes for it to work well.
IF you gave the multiplier a smaller signal, the sine wave would pass right through without any clipping, and there would be very little 5th harmonic generated.
IF you gave the multiplier more than the rated 25 dBm, there is probably a danger of blowing up the diodes.
 

biff44

Advanced Member level 5
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Messages
4,852
Helped
1,354
Reputation
2,704
Reaction score
1,035
Trophy points
1,393
Location
New England, USA
Activity points
36,625
Commonly mentioned is the method of triggering a resonant circuit which is tuned to the desired multiple of the incoming frequency.
Of course it's easier to use this method if LC values are adjustable.

View attachment 165722
for low frequencies, you can just use a fast CMOS gate as a multiplier. As long as there is a fast turn on/turn off time....away you go!
 

Part and Inventory Search

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Top