help!! 8051 family controller beginner

UroBoros · Jun 8, 2004

family controller

hello
I am a beginner to 8051 family of controllers.Presently I am doing Projects on PIC only. I would like to start my work on Intel family also.I am confused with a lot of versions.Kindly guide me with a suitable controller to start with. Also provide me some links to suitable IDEs and programmer to start with. I am doing development in assembly only for now. So C levels may not be comfortable for me.

SphinX · Jun 8, 2004

80c51 beginner

Salam,

Many of companys now fabricate uC based on 80C51 architecture Intel, Atmel, Dallas ....

The most famous uC is ATMEL AT89CXXXX series.

You can start with AT89S51 (4k flash) or AT89S52(8k flash)
Both of them are ISP (In System Programble) so you can easy program them using a Cable(DB25) with buffer (Search EDABoard for AT89S ISP Programmer)

For a good tutorial and many resources go to
www.8052.com

Assembler ASEM51, It's good.

Simulator and Debugger Pinnacle52

I will send you the links for the above soft later.

Eng. Amr Ahmed

Bhavik Shah · Jun 8, 2004

instructions to work in pinnacle52 ide

start with 8051(80C51) which has following config.
>>16 bit addressbus
>>8 bit data bus
>>4 IO ports
>>4K internal ROM
>>128 bytes RAM

Refer: 8051 Micro-Controller by KENNETH AYALA
& also INTEL MANUAL available on the Intel
Website

eltonjohn · Jun 8, 2004

The 51 cpu evolved from the original 31 the first microcontroller .
There are plenty of manufacturers .BUt the only diffrence is the amount of peripherals .. For example some have 2 timers others 3 other even 1 .
Some have one UART some even 2 . Some have a internal FLASH other you have to provide it at the expense of using i/o pins ..
Some are faster than others There are now some that run at 100Mhs and are RISC cpus .. I even know of one manufacturer in canada that has a version of a 51 with a FLOATING POINT unit!!!!!!!!!
This days you can make your own version of 51 ..Ther are plenty of synthesizable free cores
One thing they all have in commun is the instruction set an the address spaces . That means you use the same software tools .. I will recomend you getting KEIL is more or less the standard de facto of the insdustry ..

Welcome to the 51 world..( no big deal)

ME · Jun 8, 2004

eltonjohn said:
The 51 cpu evolved from the original 31 the first microcontroller .

8051 is a micoconroller / MCU / µC, while 8031 is a microprocessor / CPU.
Not the other way around as you wrote.

I believe Atmel's and Philips' are among the most popular 8051 MCUs.

Check out this web page if you want to learn about 8051 / 8052.
www.8052.com

Atmel AVR have some 8051 pin-compatible devices for drop-in upgrading.
The reset pin are inverted on Atmel AVR compared to Atmels 8051 MCUs, so you need to change the reset circuit if you want to upgrade a circuit from 8051 to AVR.

saryee · Jun 8, 2004

For my experience, you can start with 8031, 2051, etc. They are more simply. It should be a good start from these chips.

eltonjohn · Jun 8, 2004

Sorry ME ... But when i was at INTEL in 1988 -1991 we used to call it a microcontroller . So probably the name stick to me .. No wonder
i still have all those now old INTEL data sheet they all say MICRONTROLLER ... I wonder if you are thinking more of the old 8085
Any ways you can call it as you want is OK with me !

here is one of those old dataheets

ME · Jun 8, 2004

eltonjohn said:
Sorry ME ... But when i was at INTEL in 1988 -1991 we used to call it a microcontroller . So probably the name stick to me .. No wonder
i still have all those now old INTEL data sheet they all say MICRONTROLLER ... I wonder if you are thinking more of the old 8085
Any ways you can call it as you want is OK with me !

here is one of those old dataheets

But you called the 8051 a CPU, I believe this is a MCU with internal program memory?

The normal defenition of a microcontoller vs. microprocessor:
CPU / µP / Central Processing Unit / microprocessor: Uses external program memory
MCU / µC / MicroController Unit: Has on-chip program memory and pheripehals.

But the data sheet you attached is a combined data sheet for 8031/32 and 8051/52, I think this is the reason why the headline says microcontroller.

The names CPU and MCU are often confused though.
I don't know if Intel use another defenition of the words than what is common.
Not that it means that much what we call the devices, but one might think a 8051 had no on-chip program memory if it is called a CPU.

eltonjohn · Jun 8, 2004

well what i wanted to explain to the newbie is that the CPU 51 is still the same .. and the peripherals and memory are the ones that change from version to version CPU + Peripherals + memory = MCU
in the case of the 51 all versions share the same CPU ! wich evolved from the original 31 the world first microcontroller! ....

ME · Jun 8, 2004

eltonjohn said:
well what i wanted to explain to the newbie is that the CPU 51 is still the same .. and the peripherals and memory are the ones that change from version to version CPU + Peripherals + memory = MCU
in the case of the 51 all versions share the same CPU ! wich evolved from the original 31 the world first microcontroller! ....

This is true it's the same CPU-core.
Allthough I wouldn't call the 8031 the first microcontroller, in my opinino it is a microprocessor while 8051 is a microcontroller.
But it's basically the same device, the one with external memory, the other with internal memory.

The most important thing Picstudent should consider when choosing a 8051 MCU is to choose one with Flash and ISP, which I think most of them have today.
As far as I know, Atmel and Philips are good and cheap choices.

Here is a complete 2003 list of 8-bit MCU vendors, (sorted by instruction set architecture):
**broken link removed**

crono · Jun 9, 2004

Hi,

I do not want to make a polemic post but I agree with eltonjohn.

At my training stage (~20 years ago.... sig!!) at Intel the 8051 family was presented with the name Microcontroller.

The difference was in the intended use of the object not in the harware configuration.

The microcontroller definition was used to specify a CPU intended for the embedded applications.

The difference in hardware configuration was done by the available tecnology in '80.

The 8051 was a masked MCU (the production of the programmed MCU was done directly by INTEL with the customer code).

If the customer production was numerically insufficient for a masked production there was two option.
The first was the 8031 with an external EPROM.
The secon the expensive 8751 (windowed EPROM version) that was the progenitor of the flash MCU of these day (used in code development).
Of course there was a 8751 OTP (one time programming) version (internal EEPROM without window) that is still available today.

All type of internal code MCU can be used with external EPROM or RAM for code or ram extensions.

eltonjohn · Jun 9, 2004

Oh you brought me back some memories .. As a very young engineer .Around 1985 we designed a Minitel terminal in my native FRANCE and we decided to go for a (8k) masked 8031 .. The cost of the masking fee was very affordable around $10,000 ( dollars of those days ) . And along with that we ordered 10K pieces .. But latter we discovered a code BUG ,, we had boxes and boxes of those critters and no use for them .. i recall one time we spent an afternoon embedding them in a wall just for decoration !!!!!!!jajajaj

i should also mention in those days you did't have the simulators of today
and emulators were very expensive ..
Later i recall INTEL came up with EPROM that had a MULTIPLEXER (373)
embedded inside ..

UroBoros · Jun 9, 2004

hello
Thanks everybody for a informative discussion and I am very happy that my post happen to trigger a very serious discussion which showered a lot of light into the evolving times of our good old controller.Atmel is very cheep and easily available in our area.So I am planning to start with that controller.I was able to collect or rather download assemblers and programmers for that.But do we have any IDE for Atmel processors just like MPLAB for Picmicros?
Regarding microcontrollers Vs Microprocessors discussion from a newbie's point of view I feel that 8031 is more a microcontroller than a processor because as per the defenision we have all minimum peripherals ,only Programe memmory is absent.So the device appraoaches the 'shape' prescribed for a controller,away from a processor.
Thanks for all the info.
CU

eltonjohn · Jun 9, 2004

Uhmmm .. Because the 51 is such an old microcontroller ,it is a well stablish architecture .And the different manufacturers are not pushing it as their own architecture ,they don't need to.. So there are well stablished software companies that support most of the flavors of this chip .. As far as i know the only IDE for 51 that a particular manufacturer offers is the one by CYGNAL and the one by TRISCEND .(cygnal has changed of name latetly) The reason is that this flavors of 51 come with so many peripherals that they want to make it easy to program . Both chips fall now in a new category .they are considerd CSoC (configurable system on chip ) and still are based on the old intel CPU .. but because of the new multitude of peripherals, they require a better IDE . So you rather go for a professional programming enviroment like the KEIL or Archemides . Usually those companies support most of the flavors of the 51
The Triscend is probably the most complex of all the 51 derivatives it even has a DMA and is possible to do banking up to 16Mbytes it also contains a FPGA !
The cygnal on the other hand it is more mix signal oriented .and it comes with a vey powerful 51 copmpatible RISC core capable in some versions of up to 50 ~100 mips i just got samples of the new c8051F320 it has USB fully integrated !!.. ans is tiny
I enjoy a lot programming both of those chips .. the little cygnal allow me to tackle reasonable complex designs with very little components .
take a look at those 51 derivated products .for some reason i don't do 51 with ATMELS ! ..maybe i don't need to !
In any case ,that's why the 51 architecture is so great there is a lot of competition and innovation .

the cygnal is now silab :
**broken link removed**
the triscend is now XILINX
www.triscend.com

ME · Jun 9, 2004

You might be right about the 8031 called a MCU because of the on chip peripherals, I think we have all have the idea of the difference between MCUs and CPUs.
On-chip peripherals might be enough to define it as a MCU.
Today most 8-bit devices have on-chip program memory, but some still uses an external Flash or ROM for program memory (MPU).

Renesas (formerly Hitachi and Mitshubishi) produces a lot of popular 4-, 8-, 16- and 32 bit families. Renesas both makes microcontrollers and micorprocessors .
So there might be three types
CPU
MPU
MCU

MPU is used for embedded processors while CPU are used for computers.
When they mention MPU and MCU under one, they call it Microcomputer.
Renesas: http://www.renesas.com/eng/products/mpumcu/index.html

http://www.mindbranch.com/listing/product/R97-469.html

The Cahners In-Stat Group believes that the discrepancy for embedded microprocessors lies in the present definition of an MPU vs. an MCU (has non-volatile memory on-chip) and in the disappearance of MPUs as cores inside large systems-on-chip that may be proprietary or reported as ASIC or DSP devices. This report presents the MPU vendor market shares and market perspectives for CPUs and embedded MPUs for calendar year 1999.

http://www.csee.umbc.edu/courses/un...rt/lectures/Introduction_to_8051/mpuVsMc.html

Microprocessors vs Microcontrollers

Microcontrollers
A microprocess is a general-purpose digital computer central processing unit. To make a complete micorcomputer, you add memory (ROM and RAM) memory decoders, an oscillator, and a number of I/O devices. The prime use of a microprocessor is to read data, perform extensive calcualtions on that data, and store the results in a mass storage device or display the results. The design of the microcontroller is driven by the desire to make it as expandable and flexible as possible.

Microcontrollers
A microcontroller is a true computer on a chip. The design incorporates all of the features found in a micro-processor CPU: ALU, PC, SP, and registers. It also has ROM, RAM, parallel I/O, serial I/O, counters and a clock circuit. The microcontroller is a general-purpose device meant to read data, perform limited calculations on that data and control its environment based on those calcualtions. The prime use of a microcontroller is to control the oeprations of a machine using a fixed program that is stored in ROM and does not change over the lifetime of the system. The miccontroller is concerned with getting data from and to its own pins; the architecture and instruction set are optimized to handle data in bit and byte size.

Summary
The contrast between a microcontroller and a microprocessor is best exemplified by the fact that most microprocessors have many operation codes (opcodes) for moving data from external memory to the CPU; microcontrollers may have one or two. Microprecssors may have one or two types of bit-handling instructions; microcontrollers will have many.
8051 programs are more compact and will run faster (than a microprocessor) to accomplish the similar tasks. The disadvantage of using a lean instruction set is increased programmer effort (expense) to write code; this disadvantage can be overcome when writing large programs by the use of high-level languages such as BASIC and C, both of them are popular with 8051 system developers. The price paid for reducing programmer time (and there is always a price) is the size of the program generated (which could drive up the unit cost of the system.)

It seems like there is different ways of defining the difference between MCUs and MPUs.

Devices with on-chip peripherals such as ADC PWM etc. are often called MCUs, while devices without peripherals are called MPUs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are interested in CSoC you should check out Cypress, they have some very interesting SoC with 8051 core.
Cypress call them: Programmable System-on-Chip(PSoC), which is a trademark.
Both CSoC and PSoc are System-on-Chip, just with different names.
Cypress also have some of their own Development Tools for theese chips.
The Cypress PSoC's areavailable with USB fully integrated and are good for Mixed-signal design just like Silicon Laboratories (Cygnal).
www.cypress.com

If you want very fast 8051-cores you should go for Maxim/Dallas and Silicon Laboratories (Cygnal).

ME · Jun 9, 2004

eltonjohn said:
the triscend is now XILINX
www.triscend.com

Triscend (now owned by Xilinx) stops manufacturing of all their devices later this year.

Triscend announces EOL for its existing products:

EOL Notification: http://www.triscend.com/companyinfo/eol.htm

The purpose of this document is to provide formal notification of discontinuation of all Triscend products. It is an unfortunate business necessity that low or zero volume products must be discontinued and all Triscend products presently fall into this category.

Please note that this withdrawal includes all package types and all process levels, including die/wafers, and any supporting material such as development boards, documentation, etc.

Triscend offers all customers an opportunity to place last purchase orders for “lifetime buy” requirements. Orders for lifetime buy quantities must be received by September 3, 2004. All shipments must be complete by October 29, 2004 and any orders that cannot meet this date will not be accepted under any circumstance. Orders are non-cancelable, non-reschedulable, and non-returnable.

If you require additional support beyond the dates defined in this letter, please contact Rochester Electronics Inc. They will be an authorized distributors of Triscend’s products after September 3, 2004. Rochester provides extensive inventory and supply-chain management expertise and may be able to provide continued supply. You may visit Rochester Electronics at http://www.rocelec.com.

FAQ regarding EOL: http://www.triscend.com/companyinfo/#

We got the EOL notification from our Distributor, so what happened?
Triscend was acquired by Xilinx in March of 2003. This acquisition occurred because there was a strong synergistic relationship with the talent and technology that Triscend had developed for the emerging embedded / FPGA market and Xilinx's technology and market presence.

Because of the need to align Triscend's personnel with newer Xilinx products and vision it became evident that it made business sense to EOL the Triscend products and focus on the future of the embedded market space.

What are the timelines for the end of life?
Triscend offers all customers an opportunity to place last purchase orders for “lifetime buy” requirements. Orders for lifetime buy quantities must be received by September 3, 2004. All shipments must be complete by October 29, 2004 and any orders that cannot meet this date will not be accepted under any circumstance. Orders are non-cancelable, non-reschedulable, and non-returnable.

Is Xilinx coming out with replacement parts or products?
Given the generic nature of FPGA products it is impossible to predict all variations of customer designs but the breadth of Xilinx products allows for more than enough flexibility to cover most applications. With the PowerPC and Microblaze product lines **broken link removed** Xilinx is able to cover a range for embedded products and systems for a variety of price / performance applications.

Is there a way to continue to get supply of Triscend product?
We have engaged with a third party Rochester Electronics Inc. to provide for extended support for all of Triscend's semiconductor products after the EOL date.
Rochester provides extensive inventory and supply-chain management expertise and should be able to provide continued supply by utilizing the same foundries, packaging facilities and flows that Triscend used. This flow is used at Rochester’s discretion to continue to manufacture new products to provide for future demand.

You may visit Rochester Electronics at http://www.rocelec.com

How long will Rochester support this product?
Rochester specializes in support of discontinued products and have expressed to Triscend that they have never discontinued one of their supported product. Although there are no guarantees, there is a strong likelihood that the products will be available for an extended period.

What will happen to the pricing with Rochester?
Triscend is not directly involved with Rochester's pricing model. Customers should contact Rochester directly to obtain pricing.

How do I contact Rochester?
Presently the most efficient way is to go to their website and contact them through the information provided at: **broken link removed**

What do I do if I’m not getting the desired response time from my Rep or Distributor?
Please contact Lawrence Getman at 650 968 8668 x145 at email addresses larry@triscend.com and lawrence.getman@xilinx.com

feiutm9898 · Jun 9, 2004

THis site have a C programming ebook for 8051 microcontroller family.

Please have a look

eltonjohn · Jun 10, 2004

MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks ME didn't know about TRISCEND going out of bussiness ! that is the sentence righ there ..

IS A SAD DAY FOR ME .! because i was an advisor when TRISCEND started and tried to raise $9M and they got $20M from the PANASONIC investing group i did the presentation on why this was a NICE TECHNOLOGY , i also was one of their first CUSTUMERS ... TRISCEND never went PUBLIC .. by the time they wanted increase the value of the company .. The world was different PLACE . XILINX was the only taker becasue the ingineers that conceived TRISCEND were XILINX escapees ..

Boy ... my HEALEY is gone now TRISCEND
this world really sucks !!! Please don't beleave that there is a recovery in the US .. it's just BULL .. !!!

ME · Jun 10, 2004

eltonjohn said:
TRISCEND never went PUBLIC .. by the time they wanted increase the value of the company .. The world was different PLACE . XILINX was the only taker becasue the ingineers that conceived TRISCEND were XILINX escapees.

Because of the need to align Triscend's personnel with newer Xilinx products and vision it became evident that it made business sense to EOL the Triscend products and focus on the future of the embedded market space.

Interesting, I didn't knew Triscend was started by Xilinx escapees.
It seems Xilinx just bought Triscend to get their escapees back to work with Xilinx products. Closing down Triscend only a year after they bought it.

You can't even find a datasheet or application note at their web site anymore.
But if you are interested to see what these products was like I googled for a "Triscend data sheet" and found this at Keil's web site:
https://www.keil.com/dd/docs/datashts/triscend/te5xx.pdf

It seems you did a good job as advisor when Triscend should raise the money though, they raised more than double of the planned, but as you say it was much easier to raise money a few years back than it is now.

ME · Jun 10, 2004

ME said:
If you are interested in CSoC you should check out Cypress, they have some very interesting SoC with 8051 core.
Cypress call them: Programmable System-on-Chip(PSoC), which is a trademark.
Both CSoC and PSoc are System-on-Chip, just with different names.
Cypress also have some of their own Development Tools for theese chips.
The Cypress PSoC's areavailable with USB fully integrated and are good for Mixed-signal design just like Silicon Laboratories (Cygnal).
www.cypress.com.

Cypress has a seperate web site dedicated to their PSoC microcontrollers:
www.cypressmicro.com
I only posted the link to their main site www.cypress.com. I don't know if you can find the link to www.cypressmicro.com there.
It can be hard to navigate at www.cypressmicro.com, I have seen better and more logic/simple built web sties, but you will probably learn how the site is built and how to navigate.
But it is much easier to navigate from www.cypressmicro.com, most of the links points to pages placed at www.cypress.com.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cypress introduction to PSoc:

PSoC Mixed-Signal Array

Programmable System-on-Chip (PSoC) offers the embedded system designer a revolutionary new choice; a true System-on-Chip at standard 8-bit MCU prices. Scroll down to view product list and data sheets.

Cypress recently announced production shipments of an advanced analog family of its award-winning device. The new CY8C27x device family provides highly stable, instrumentation-quality analog performance—including rail-to-rail inputs; programmable gain; 14-bit analog-to-digital converters (up to four independent converters are available in a single PSoC device); exceptionally low noise, input leakage and voltage offset, along with rich digital functions including an 8-bit microcontroller core.

Containing over 100 reconfigurable analog and digital library components created from 12 fundamental analog and 8 digital blocks, PSoC CY8C27x devices are true systems on a chip. Each contains a 24 MHz 8-bit microcontroller unit (MCU); 16 kbytes of flash memory; 256 bytes of SRAM; an 8x8 multiplier with 32-bit accumulator; power and sleep monitoring circuits; and a precision real-time clock.

help!! 8051 family controller beginner

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