# Automated 3 roller bender

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#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
16f505 projects

I would like to automate this machine to bend tubes on it’s own. This machine bends by rolling tubes back and forth multiple times. Please look at picture below to better understand how this machine works.

What I need to do is put proximity sensors on point A and point B. Run the tube across the machine till it reaches point A, automatically stop, and the run the tube across in the opposite direction to point B, automatically stop, and continue the cycle back and forth.

As the tube is being pushed back and forth automatically, Roller 1 is moved in a downward direction, by gear driven motor, a little at a time, during each cycle. Currently Roller 1 has a push-button to move it down and a push-button to move it up. I could put Roller 1 on a relay timer that would turn on the motor for 3 to 5 second during each cycle till it is reaches a limit switch that would turn it off the machine.

Rollers 2 & 3 move simultaneously on one gear driven motor that pushes the metal tube back and forth. The motor has a switch with three positions: Back, Forth and Off.

The proximity sensor are battery powered that attach to the metal tube with magnets. They have a Normally Closed and Normally Open function.

What would be great is to put the metal tube on the machine, set the limit switch to the proper height, attach the proximity sensor on the ends of the tube and the press a button to automatically bend the tube. Once Roller 1 reaches its limit switch, have a loud alarm go off for a few seconds and turn off.

What I need is a schematic showing me how to wire everything together.

Any help would be appreciated

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5

I now strongly recommend the use of a microcontroller.

The problem may seem similar to the previous one, but there are important differences:
- you now have three sensor inputs
- you now have four outputs: three for the motors, one for the alarm
- delays need to be introduced here, because you are reversing motion, so you need to allow the relays time to disconnect before connecting the relay for reverse. This is a subtle difference, but extremely important.

All of the above mean that the state machine becomes more complex, requiring many more parts. It would be difficult to build.
I could, just for the sake of illustration, put together a schematic for you, just to show how complicated it gets.

But from a practical point of view I recommend using a micro.

### privas

Points: 2

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
3 roller manual bender start

Here it is. Fifteen chips altogether.
And the alarm still has to be timed externally, or else you need to add a fw more parts.

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
roller bender

Thanks again. Even though the schematic will take some effort to build, I think it's my only option at this moment.

I still would like to attempt making one with a microcontroller.

Can you design a schematic with a microcontroller?

Best regards,
privas

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
16f505 project

There isn't much to designing it with a microcontroller.
Basically you just connect the switches and the transistors driving the relays directly to the micro.
It is then just a matter of writing the appropriate program to make it work.

### privas

Points: 2

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
roler bender

Here is wht it would look like with a PIC16F84.

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
What type of hardware and software is required to program a PIC16F84?

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
The software is available free from Microchip. It is called MPLAB IDE.
You can build a programmer yourself. Look on this board for ICD2. Aparently there is a clone that works.

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
Hi, VVV

Can you please re-post the schematic with the microcontroller at a higher resolution. I'm unable to read the numbers and letters. Also, member RITUPARNASAIKIA, has agreed to program the microcontroller. He wants to use a 8051 architecture based micro controller for this solution and do the programmings in embedded c.

He wants to change 16F84 with AT89C2051. What do you think? Does it change the schematic design?

Regards,
Privas

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
I will, but I have to redraw it using EAGLE. Hopefully I will do that tonight, when I get home.

For another micro, the schematic will be completely different, though not fundamentally.
I can do the code for you, using assembler. For this application, I feel that is more apropriate.

Let me know how you want to proceed.

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
Hi, VVV

If you can also do the code, then the decision would be left up to you how it should be made. Can you please provide a part list, since I'm very new to electronics?

I'm considering buying a "Flash PIC USB Programmer Electronic Kit" item: 1488.
Here is there link https://www.hobbyengineering.com/SectionPC.html
What do you think? Will this work for programming the microcontroller?

Regards,
privas

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
Hi privas,

It is not my decision. I had a suggestion, based on a popular micro. What you are trying to do can be done with pretty much ANY microcontroller that is out there. So if you have another preference, based on availability or price, or whatever, you can choose another micro.

Yes, I think the programmer you are suggesting will work. There are some that you can just build yourself, such as the JDM (seems to have some minor problems), propic 2, EPIC. Search the board on these keywords, you will get many hits and links.
I think I have done a propic 2 PCB for a member of this board (I have not built it, I use my own design), but that was a long time ago, so you may not find my post. But I should still have the file at home. I will check when I get home. The schematic is available on the Net.

Regards,
VVV

### privas

Points: 2

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
Hi privas,

Here is the new PIC-based bender controller.
Note that the inputs to the PIC, as well as the outputs, can be pretty much swapped any way you want. The code can reassign them. RA4, since it is open-drain cannot function properly as an output, though.
RB7:4 can be used to generate an interrupt on change, so it is probably better to connect them to the switches, although that is not really necessary.
Note that a similar schematic can be drawn using another microcontroller.

As for the programmer, I do have the file, but I cannot recall the name, so likely you will not find the SW for it. It is a very simple, serially connected one.

Anyway, take a look at this webpage. www.chez.com/malice84/main3.html

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
Hi, VVV

If the product "Flash PIC USB Programmer Electronic Kit" works for programming the chip we are going to use, then that's what I'll buy. I really want to finish this project because I have other ideas I'd like to work on.

1) On the schematic you designed, I was wondering if can be made to adjust the time roller 1 stays on? It would be nice if it had a turn-knob to adjust the time up or down. I don't know much but how about a potentiometer?

2) Can you please write the code for the microcontroller and post it?

3) Can you please provide a part list of the items I need to buy. I plan to order everything from www.digikey.com

Regards,
privas

Added after 31 minutes:

Hi, VVV

What do you think of using this development board. If this development board would work for this application, it would save me a lot of time. Here is a link.
https://www.pjrc.com/store/dev_pcb_assem.html

Regards,
Privas

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
Hi privas,

I think the USB programmer will work. But you have to assemble it, too.

Check out the PICKit2 from Digikey. It only costs $35 US. If it really comes with a PIC and an eval board, then you can use that and that PIC. You can install the rest of the components on that board. Give them a call and see what the kit actually includes. https://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=1134&Site=US&Cat=33686512 https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/market_communication/pickit.doc The eval board you suggested is actually for an 8051 micro. If you are going with the PIC, you cannot use it. One piece of advice: use a socket on your board, since the code may not work from the first shot (it rarely does). As for the adjustment, you can use a binary switch. I can add it to the schematic. Using a pot is a little harder, since the PIC16F84 does not have an A/D converter. We can certainly implement something with a comparator and such, but it would be more complicated and possibly not so repeatable. I recommend the binary switch, especially that you have 4 unused pins on the PIC. ### privas Points: 2 Helpful Answer Positive Rating #### privas ##### Junior Member level 3 Hi, VVV 1) I think pickit 2 starter kit for$ 50.00 would work. Here is a description
Part Number: DV164120 - PICkit 2 Starter Kit
The PICkit 2 Starter Kit contains a PICkit 2 Microcontroller Programmer and a PICkit 2 Low Pin Count Demo Board containing a PIC16F690 PDIP for getting started with programming baseline and midrange flash microcontrollers. PICkit 2 takes advantage of Microchip’s Full-Speed USB device, thereby significantly speeding up developoment programming. The PICkit 2 Low Pin Count Demo Board supports 8-, 14-, and 20-pin PICmicros. In addition to the PIC16F690, the board comes with 4 LEDs, a pushbutton, and a pot. Also included are 12 lessons to help get developers up to speed quickly on programming PICmicro MCUs.

2) As you probably noticed this board comes with PIC16F690 included. If we can use PIC16F690 great, but if PIC16F84A is better then I'll buy that one instead. The additional cost of less than \$3.00 is nominal

3) Binary switch sounds good to me.

4) Can you please post updated schematic and provide part list so that I can order everything and start assembly.

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
Actually, the PIC16F690 is better. I has more I/O pins, more memory, it has an A/D (so you can use the pot), two comparators and it has a communication interface (which can be used in the future to connect serially to a computer for example, or to easily connect other devices to it). It can definitely make future projects easier.

Plus, this eval board can be saved to use as a programmer for future projects, using 8, 14 or 20-pin PIC's. The price is right, too.
Therefore, I would just go with the PIC16F690, even though it seems a bit of a waste, seeing that you will not use it at its full potential. Perhaps a better choice would be a PIC16F505, which can also be programmed with pickit 2.
The only reason I recommended the PIC16F84 is that it is a very popular micro and easily available.

I will update the schematic, but it may take a while, since I am really busy this week.
Can you give me an idea of the motor currents?
Do you have already any relays to control them? Which type? This is important to correctly select the transistors.

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
The machine has two Motor Starter which are basically Relays.
The coil operates with 120 volts.

Roller 1's
Motor Starter's
Size 0, Series K
Three Phase Non-Reversing Starter: 709A0D
Contractor: 70A86: 120V SZ9 MAG COIL F/700 SERIES
Motor
Brand: Boston Gear
3 phase
volts: 208-230
hp: 1/2

Roller's 2 & 3
* Currently does not have Motor Starters, but I will add a pair with 120 volt coils. I'm shopping on Ebay for a pair.
Motor
Brand: Baldor Industrial Motor
3 phase
volts: 208-230
hp: 1

#### VVV

##### Advanced Member level 5
We cannot drive the relays directly with transistors, if they are 120VAC.
We will have to use smaller DC relays (5V or 12V) to drive them. Can you get me the datasheet or link to the data of those contactors?

### privas

Points: 2

#### privas

##### Junior Member level 3
What if I switch the Motor Starters with the units listed below? They are being sold on ebay. They are strong enough for my motors and the coil operates with 24VDC. Can the circuit board be made to operate 24VDC Relays or 12VDC the max? I'm going to keep looking for 12VDC motor starters.

Model: 100-C09Z*01

"These are used but work perfect, they were used for a short period of time and were removed by myself and care was taken. They all have Aux. contacts cat# 100-F , Overloads cat# 193-TA B60, and Suspressor cat# 100-FSV55. 24vdc coil, Rated 1/3hp-115vac, 1hp-230vac, 3 phase...2hp-200/230vac, 5hp-460, and 7.5hp-575vac."