2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),who ha

[Element7k]

Re: Element7k

Hi allm

Here is wong's IFA in v9 (without results) - tell me if it works cos I only attached *.hf$$ file as advised. Also dimensions (in gif) for those who can't open my sat file.

Cheers,
Element7k

Dear Element7k:
how can i open your *.sat file in hfss8.0? can?
can you upload your project(hfss 8.0) about printed ifa simulation?without being solved i think the size is small. i need your help!
i do not know how to draw the model and set the boundary?do you have some example about printed antenna simulation?

[/quote]

 

[kayaoo]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

But I think 9.0 should be compatible with 8.0.

yes,v8 runs as well as v9.but hf$$'s mesh is sensitive.sometimes the results are slightly different.this do not matter,i think.
i ul my ifa design too. It is used in 2.45G ism band(80MHz), the hight is reduced to minimize the size. i don't know how to tradeoff between the bandwidth,the fabrication and the size.the connections between the multilayers is also a problem.is single layer better?

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Hi kayaoo,

I've imported yellowtooth's file into v9. However, I had the problem of not being able to change the material property of the antenna structure to copper and I got the same poorer s11 as you did. I was wondering if you have the same problem? I will try to model the antenna with a coaxial feed.

For your design, can you define your materials on a gif file please? From your sat and sm3 files, it is difficult to differential between copper and dielectric. I have assumed that top=copper and die=dielectric the material is FR4. Pardon me but if this the case, it is a very strange design.
If possible, can u try uploading your *.hfss file so I can test to see if I can open it in v9.

Many thanks.

Element7k

But I think 9.0 should be compatible with 8.0.

yes,v8 runs as well as v9.but hf$$'s mesh is sensitive.sometimes the results are slightly different.this do not matter,i think.
i ul my ifa design too. It is used in 2.45G ism band(80MHz), the hight is reduced to minimize the size. i don't know how to tradeoff between the bandwidth,the fabrication and the size.the connections between the multilayers is also a problem.is single layer better?

 

[kayaoo]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

hi element7K,
ul the .sat and .s3m file instead of .hf$$ because they may be used in V8(i am not sure).does the struture look strange? the antenna is layouted on a 6 layers fr4 pcb. the layers are connected by dense vias to form a thick metal. i think this is better than only one thin metal layer on the top.but i am not sure. maybe there exist other problems. what's ur opinion?
yellowtooth's project uses e boundaries instead of metal objects. so the boxes have zero thickness and can not own a material setup.i think it can work too.it is really difficult to understand the difference between the results from v8 and v9.
ul the .hf$$ files.

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Hi Kayaoo,

thanks for the v9 files. Pardon me for saying that your design is weird as I see no obvious benefits using a multilayered PCB when it is still probe feed. Please tell me why if you think otherwise. Maybe your application requires mulitlayerbecause you have other components mounted together with the antenna? I am also not sure if the big metal layer on the same side of the antenna will be helpful to radiation patterns. If it is a "stand alone" antenna it will increase the cost of the antenna and make fabrication more difficult. Maybe it is easier with a simple double sided FR4. It can be manufactured quickly and cheaply without involving more mechanical effort. From the simulations, your antenna works and if it is within budget without $$$ constraints, I don't see why not your antenna will not be a hit?!

However, I tried out yellowtooth's antenna on both C/$/T and HF$$ and both of simulations exhibited frequency shift towards the 2.6 GHz range so I think yellowtooth's antenna needs some tuning before it can be used in the Bluetooth 2.4GHz range. However, the antenna might still work in real life as close enough is good enough.

I will look forward to hearing more from you about the designs.

Cheers,
Element7k

hi element7K,
ul the .sat and .s3m file instead of .hf$$ because they may be used in V8(i am not sure).does the struture look strange? the antenna is layouted on a 6 layers fr4 pcb. the layers are connected by dense vias to form a thick metal. i think this is better than only one thin metal layer on the top.but i am not sure. maybe there exist other problems. what's ur opinion?
yellowtooth's project uses e boundaries instead of metal objects. so the boxes have zero thickness and can not own a material setup.i think it can work too.it is really difficult to understand the difference between the results from v8 and v9.
ul the .hf$$ files.

 

[kayaoo]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

hi element7K,
thanks for ur advices. the antenna is really not "stand alone" but a small part of a module. i think many 2.4G products are designed in such a way to lower the cost. However multilayer brings many problems.
1, how to simulate the antenna accurately? the actual antenna with so many vias is too complex to be modeled in detail.
2, how to make the most of the additional metal layers? the vias enable us to design in a 2.5D manner rather than a 2D one.but what are the design rules.
3, does the design bring much fabricating difficulties? the manufacturing process of multilayer pcbs is slightly different from that of double layer pcbs and also quite different from LTCC. so what are the limitions the manufacturing process brings us in our antenna or any other RF designs?
I will look forward to hearing ur advices.
sincerely,
kayaoo

If it is a "stand alone" antenna it will increase the cost of the antenna and make fabrication more difficult. Maybe it is easier with a simple double sided FR4. It can be manufactured quickly and cheaply without involving more mechanical effort. From the simulations, your antenna works and if it is within budget without $$$ constraints, I don't see why not your antenna will not be a hit?!

However, I tried out yellowtooth's antenna on both C/$/T and HF$$ and both of simulations exhibited frequency shift towards the 2.6 GHz range so I think yellowtooth's antenna needs some tuning before it can be used in the Bluetooth 2.4GHz range. However, the antenna might still work in real life as close enough is good enough.

 

[kayaoo]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

i also simulated yellowtooth's ifa in cst and hfss and got similar results.not only the frequency shifts but the return loss is worse than yellowtooth's reult. maybe settings are different,or maybe not.

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

I think the problem is that yellowtooth has not used enough tetrahedrals to mesh the structure. If you reduce it to maybe 3 adaptive passes in H/F/$/$ v9 you will get close to what yellowtooth got.

Cheers,
Element7k

i also simulated yellowtooth's ifa in cst and hfss and got similar results.not only the frequency shifts but the return loss is worse than yellowtooth's reult. maybe settings are different,or maybe not.

 

[peter-gr]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

I have a question about the Dual_Band F-shaped Monopole antenna for 2.4/5.2 GHZ WLAN Applications of the Kin-Lu Wong publication.
In the publication i read that there is a ground plane printed on a back of the substrate(as expected) ecxept at the region below the proposed antenna.Why we dont put ground plane below the proposed antenna?Does it play any role in the resonant frequencies or it changes only the radiation pattern?If we put ground plane below the proposed antenna what would change?

Thank you for your time

peterpsomos

 

[yellowtooth]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

How 2 import the HF$$8.0 files into HF$$9.0 ?

I wanna compare the results between 8 and 9 too.

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Run ur v8 files as usual, In HF$$9 when u open project file, go to File --> open --> File type --> @nsofT Leg@cy project.cls. It should import everything excluding result and plots.

Cheers,
Element7k

How 2 import the HF$$8.0 files into HF$$9.0 ?

I wanna compare the results between 8 and 9 too.

 

[yellowtooth]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

I have got the HF$$9.0 recently, which is about 130MB.

But I can only find the *.hfss files in the example folder.

And there is no "import" and "export" command in the "file" pull down menu.

Some one has UL the *.sat and *.sm3 files.

But there is no such files in both 8.0 and 9.0's folders.

How can I use these files ? Can I get the *.sat or *.sme file from *.hfss file ?

Thank U vry much.

 

[yellowtooth]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Element7k,

Do U mean that I can open the *.sat and *.sm3 files just as the *.cls type that in the file menu ?

If so , another problem is that I donot know which file should be opend in my 8.0 design.

How did U produce the *.sat file from the 9.0 ?

Thank U.

 

[yellowtooth]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

peterpsomos,

Both the radiation and the impedence will change !

The Ground is very important.

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Hi yellowtooth,

if u have an hf$$8.5 file, you can open it in hf$$ 9.0. Below is how u do it,

Converting Older HFSS Projects to HFSS v9
From HFSS v9.0,
Select the menu item File > Open
Open dialog
Files of Type: Ansoft Legacy EM Projects (.cls)
Browse to the existing project and select the .cls file
Click the Open button

What is Converted?
Converts Entire Model: Geometry/Materials/Boundary/Sources/Setup
Solutions, Optimetrics projects and Macros are not converted

Okay, to open *.sat or *.sm3 files,

In Project Manager Window, Right Click on Project1 --> Insert HF$$ Design --> Then on the menu bar click on 3D modeler --> import --> select file *.sat or *.sm3.

There you are sorted.

Cheers,
Element7k

I have got the HF$$9.0 recently, which is about 130MB.

But I can only find the *.hfss files in the example folder.

And there is no "import" and "export" command in the "file" pull down menu.

Some one has UL the *.sat and *.sm3 files.

But there is no such files in both 8.0 and 9.0's folders.

How can I use these files ? Can I get the *.sat or *.sme file from *.hfss file ?

Thank U vry much.

 

[yellowtooth]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Thanks for Element7k's help, I have succesfully import the file *.sm3 and *.sat.

When I open the *.HFSS file provided by kayaoo, it take me all teh afternoon to simulate only with error that no enough memory.
During the process, it seem need several handred MB disk space.

Is it right ?

hi element7K,
ul the .sat and .s3m file instead of .hf$$ because they may be used in V8(i am not sure).does the struture look strange? the antenna is layouted on a 6 layers fr4 pcb. the layers are connected by dense vias to form a thick metal. i think this is better than only one thin metal layer on the top.but i am not sure. maybe there exist other problems. what's ur opinion?
yellowtooth's project uses e boundaries instead of metal objects. so the boxes have zero thickness and can not own a material setup.i think it can work too.it is really difficult to understand the difference between the results from v8 and v9.
ul the .hf$$ files.

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Hi yellowtooth,

whole afternoon?? Hahaha! :lol: Actually, I think the solving engine behind v9 is same as v8.5. The run time depends on ur processor speed and how much ram you have.

Try downloading kayaoo v9 file which already has all the setup ready. It took me just (I think) 10-15min on my 2Ghz machine. Yes, the results takes up about 75MB on my computer.

Cheers,
Element7k

Thanks for Element7k's help, I have succesfully import the file *.sm3 and *.sat.

When I open the *.HFSS file provided by kayaoo, it take me all teh afternoon to simulate only with error that no enough memory.
During the process, it seem need several handred MB disk space.

Is it right ?

 

[nanjingchenbing]

I only know that if you set ground radius is about to quater wavelength , the dipole antenna's radiation pattern is ideal.but as to patch antenna, I don't know,you can try with different size!

 

[Element7k]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Hi peterpsomos,

try a simulation and you will find out about its effects. You can then tell us all about it. However from previous simulation, I realised that there is a hotspot in the gnd plane near the edges of the F antenna. This might have played a part in the resonance freq. (I don't know, maybe increased capacitance) If you extend the gnd plane, I will expect frequency shift and what comes with it of course changes in radiation pattern. Do a simulation and you will find out.

Cheers,
Element7k

I have a question about the Dual_Band F-shaped Monopole antenna for 2.4/5.2 GHZ WLAN Applications of the Kin-Lu Wong publication.
In the publication i read that there is a ground plane printed on a back of the substrate(as expected) ecxept at the region below the proposed antenna.Why we dont put ground plane below the proposed antenna?Does it play any role in the resonant frequencies or it changes only the radiation pattern?If we put ground plane below the proposed antenna what would change?

Thank you for your time

peterpsomos

 

[yellowtooth]

Re: 2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),wh

Element7k,

MyCPU speed is about 633MHz, and RAM maybe 128MB.

And today morning, I tried again, with the same error message "insufficient memory".

I am on holiday now (China National Day), so I simulated it on my own computer, tomorrow I will try it on university's computer.

2GHz*10min=633MHz*????

???=half day !!!