Tips and information about using LON networks

[btbass]

Anybody got any tips or knowledge of LON networks?
Or good links to info?

 

[PaulHolland]

lon networks

A very good one even, DO NOT USE IT !

 

[btbass]

what is a lon network

Not my decision!
I believe it is becoming a standard for building control networks?

 

[PaulHolland]

what is lon network

I believe it is becoming a standard for building control networks?: Who is telling you this, Echelon maybe ... Its not a standard better use LAN/CAN networks for controlling since its cheaper and more much more support. Industry is also moving to LAN away from pro-priatory systems like LON networks.

 

[btbass]

lon networking

Thats very interesting info!
The brief is to do a LON to CAN interface.
Maybe they are stuck with LON and want to move away from it to can?

 

[PaulHolland]

lon network standard

Maybe they have a Machine that is using CAN, more and more machines do use CAN bus so maybe they would like to control this machine through LON. I would not advice to use LON but use LAN in buildings, Why ?. LON networks use an ethernet network in most buildings and why using a special network for automation if you can use your existing LAN network ?. LON is from the time LAN networks was only used by the Military and Universities, first only a closed standard and now LAN is taking over the market they opened the standard quickly in the hope to keep the business since no person is going to implement new stacks and hardware.

Zigbee is also a growing standard in building automation but also keep away from it, 10 years from now it will be history !.

Only use standards supported by multi-vendors, LON is NOT and LAN and CAN are !.
If you use LAN you can also offer your clients the nice interfaces not possible with LON unless you design and make a complete interface yourself. With LAN you can use your IE tool or any other webbrowser from any platform !.

 

[monnoliv]

lon network

Zigbee is also a growing standard in building automation but also keep away from it, 10 years from now it will be history !

That's funny! How can you write this???
ZigBee is an interoperable standard based on public profile. In my opinion, it's THE home automation standard for tomorow.

 

[PaulHolland]

lon network

The BIG problem with wireless is that its never compatible with next generations. If you have internet V4 and move to IP 6 you can still use your network cables etc... but in wireless they normally change everything, modulation, waveform, frequency, packet structure and all other layers too. Since Zigbee Pro, designed in 2007 is already not compatible with Zigbee (current 2003 standard) it will be sure that 10 years from now wireless communication will not use GFSK, FSK, MSK any more but more advanced modulation and waveforms !. Its a fact and I am in the middle of it so better believe it ..

I would say: Look at 802.11, if you did buy equipment in 1996 it would no longer work with todays standard 802.11b/g. We had 802.11 FHSS and than CCK/DSSS and than moved to 5 GHz with 802.11a and soon we will have 802.11n/i etc...... the list it to long .. Wireless is here for a short time and than followed by a new standard.

 

[monnoliv]

lon netwerk

Since Zigbee Pro, designed in 2007 is already not compatible with Zigbee (current 2003 standard)

No, Zigbee Pro is compatible with ZigBee 2006 standard.
ZigBee 2006 is compatible with older ZigBee standard
And so on, it's minimalist to have backward compatibility with only one previous generation but it's acceptable.

it will be sure that 10 years from now wireless communication will not use GFSK, FSK, MSK any more but more advanced modulation and waveforms !.

And then? 10 year ago was RS232, CENTRONICS, EGA, VGA, ISA BUS,... 10 years ago I liked these but no more now.
ZigBee permits the cheapest implementation on a chip (cheapest than BlueTooth for example), permit a true mesh network and is wireless!

Wireless is here for a short time and than followed by a new standard.

At witch standard you're thinking?

 

[PaulHolland]

what is lon networking

@ monnoliv: Its not a matter of like or not like its a matter of being able to support a products lifetime !. If you use a technology for building automation you do want something to be supported for the next 30 years or even more !. Its not a consumer product that is having a lifetime of 6 years ... The Zigbee Pro standard maybe compatible on paper (stack and air interface) but that does not mean that all chips made will support all modes... The Nanotron chip does not support Zigbee at all only Zigbee Pro the new chip made by IMEC too.

 

[monnoliv]

network lon

If you use a technology for building automation you do want something to be supported for the next 30 years or even more !. Its not a consumer product that is having a lifetime of 6 years

Where do you read that zigbee is for 6 years. It's your feeling only.
Concerning the building automation, ZigBee consortium has foreseen a "profile" for it.
Do you know what is a "profile"? ZigBee (like bluetooth) can use several profiles (public standard released by ZigBee Alliance) that we can have in a ZigBee network, example "Home Automation", "Building Automation", "Security", ... And that's why you'll always have interroperability (compatibility) between products. The devices can talk each other.

but that does not mean that all chips made will support all modes... The Nanotron chip does not support Zigbee at all only Zigbee Pro the new chip made by IMEC too

That's not the concern of the ZigBee standard, each manufacturer can customize the software (stack) onto their products BUT then, they will not be compatible and can't have the ZigBee certification.

 

[PaulHolland]

lon based network

I have the feeling that you do not understand my point !. The 6 years is the normal life time for a consumer product, after 6 years technology has advanced that a new technology will push it out of the market !. Look at Blue-ray it will now push DVD out of the market within a few years. 10 years from now and you can't buy a DVD-R disk anymore ..

stacks is only a small part of a communication device, modulator, demodulator frequency coding etc.

It has nothing to do with profiles like your saying (I myself was part of a radio communication standard process including 802.11, the original standard for FHSS, DSSS and IR and a military standard).

If your building is full with Zigbee using GFSK 2.4 GHz @ 250Kbits/s now and 10 years from now they stop, "simply stop" (Because companies want to make money and they make the most on new products), making GFSK 2,4 GHz Zigbee chips since we have Super Zigbee Pro-3 by then using a different modulation (UWB maybe) than you can try all in the world in your software stack what you want but you will not be able to make a connection to old GFSK Zigbee in your building.

My point is that Zigbee today is using a modulation form (GFSK) which is not so advanced and a good choice for inbuilding communication, new standards are already on the horizon with new modulation (CSS) that is NOT compatible with GFSK and therefor will not be interoperable at all unless they make two complete RF front-ends and processing units in ONE chip but they do not, as can be seeing from the new chips designed at this moment. Stack and profiles has noting to do with this !. I hope it is clear

 

[monnoliv]

lon network restrictions

I have the feeling that you do not understand my point !. The 6 years is the normal life time for a consumer product, after 6 years technology has advanced that a new technology will push it out of the market !. Look at Blue-ray it will now push DVD out of the market within a few years. 10 years from now and you can't buy a DVD-R disk anymore

ZigBee isn't a product, it's a standard.
People continue to use X10 home automation standard that is (technically) obsolete. X10 exists from more than 30 years, that's not 6 years.

For the remaining points, I understand that you are involved in the carrier modulation and your concern is the not-so-good modulation used for the ZigBee. So what? It doesn't matter for me (like X10 is obsolete but consumer doesn't matter, they use it), it works well and it's powerfull for our applications.
A standard is so difficult to build...

 

[PaulHolland]

monnoliv site:edaboard.com

MP3 does also exist since 30 years, HE Friend. MP4 must be something different then, what you think ...
I can't help you if your so naive, zibee is just like WAP, it comes, people use it, and the next thing will come and go !.

Better base your systems on TCP/IP based platforms, they will be here for a long time !.

 

[monnoliv]

lonworks network specifications

I can't help you if your so naive, zibee is just like WAP, it comes, people use it, and the next thing will come and go !.

Certainly no we are talking about building and house investments, not for a communication protocol for handheld devices!!!

Better base your systems on TCP/IP based platforms, they will be here for a long time !.

Try to do home automation with TCP/IP. A single chip will cost 2-3 times a zigbee chip. And then take some km of wire to do your net.

 

[PaulHolland]

lon obsolete new network

PIC18F66J60 = 3.21 USD all in ONE chip. Why making inbuilding automation wireless if the building is not mobile at all ... Everything in the building you would like to control is fixed... maybe I am missing something here.

 

[BenoitG]

lon network example

Inbuilding automation Wireles is useful to have Flexibility. The building world become also a consumer world. A part of a building can be use for law office one day and for electronic developpement center another day and the needs are very differents. Once prefer "closed offices" and the other open space. So you have to be able to adapt automation configuration easily. Wireless Push Button are the best example. That's why Zigbee have a future in Inbuilding automation. But I'm agree with you, the durability of that is not sure for long life product... But now nothing is easy for long life product design..

For LON network, I'm also agree with you and I don't understand clearly the benefits to use this. Is it in the wire cost? (compare to LAN wich is close in terms of protocol and not proprietor and cheaper in terms of hardware and software).

And someone have information about the "LON" brother, the EIB KNX protocol? Is it proprietor? Is there multi-vendors for hardware design?