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    IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    From the nonlinearity analysis we know that there is a proportional relationship beetween iip3 and P1dB(1dB compression point).i.e., if IIP3
    is high P1dB also high.But when I simuting my LNA for various IIp3 values iam getting same P1dB.IIP3 varying from 12dBm to 19dBm but P1dB remains at -8dBm.what may be the reason.iam using cadence tool and spectre simulator.can any one help? Thanks in advance.

    •   Alt9th October 2010, 08:51

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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Did you use a bipolar transistor and vary the collector current and nothing else?



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Quote Originally Posted by bluetooth View Post
    Did you use a bipolar transistor and vary the collector current and nothing else?
    Iam using MOS transitor



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshnaidu View Post
    can any one help?
    There are a lot of threads on P1dB in these EDAboard forums. Just search for it, or start with the Similar Threads below!



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    P1dB is measured at output and not at input? P1dB - at output measured - should be proportional to P-DC. If this is not the case your mosfet goes into voltage saturation or current saturation and not both simultaneously. This is due to output mismatch.



    •   Alt17th October 2010, 15:37

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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    i think the formula P1dB=IIP3-9.6dB is derived from Taylor series analysis
    maybe in spectre simulation, the IIP3 and P1dB is derived from its transform function accordingly, not pure Taylor series.



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshnaidu View Post
    From the nonlinearity analysis we know that there is a proportional relationship beetween iip3 and P1dB(1dB compression point).i.e., if IIP3
    is high P1dB also high.But when I simuting my LNA for various IIp3 values iam getting same P1dB.IIP3 varying from 12dBm to 19dBm but P1dB remains at -8dBm.what may be the reason.iam using cadence tool and spectre simulator.can any one help? Thanks in advance.
    Hi
    Could you clarify more the structure of your circuit?
    What is the input power of tones in iip3 analysis?
    I think the proportional relationship appears only if we assume that coefficients of power series of transfer function don't change with input power level - it's not the case when we measure P1db - dc bias point may change significantly.
    So may be the reason of such behaviour is that during iip3 and p1db measurements input power levels seen by circuit differs very much - so there are different sources of nonlinearity.
    Regards.



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Quote Originally Posted by pavel_adameyko View Post
    Hi
    Could you clarify more the structure of your circuit?
    What is the input power of tones in iip3 analysis?
    I think the proportional relationship appears only if we assume that coefficients of power series of transfer function don't change with input power level - it's not the case when we measure P1db - dc bias point may change significantly.
    So may be the reason of such behaviour is that during iip3 and p1db measurements input power levels seen by circuit differs very much - so there are different sources of nonlinearity.
    Regards.

    iam using a power level of -30dbm.the structure is common source cascode amplifier.thanks and regards.



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Quote Originally Posted by sureshnaidu View Post
    iam using a power level of -30dbm.the structure is common source cascode amplifier.thanks and regards.
    Just for curiosity, with +12 or even +19 IIp3 you get extremely linear LNA. How much is it gain? Have you used special linearization methods?



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Quote Originally Posted by pavel_adameyko View Post
    Just for curiosity, with +12 or even +19 IIp3 you get extremely linear LNA. How much is it gain? Have you used special linearization methods?
    gain is 10dB.Derivative superposition is used for linearity improvement.input matching is provided through resistor at the gate.



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    Did you measure P-DC when measuring P1dB? Is P-DC constant or raises your drain current by probably two times or three times when you raise your input RF power? I don´t know know what derivative superposition is. Can you please explain?
    Thanks.



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    Re: IIP3 and 1db compression point(P1dB) of LNA

    I guess the question really is "why derivative superposition (DS) does not help P1dB?"

    DS is used to cancel out the 2nd derivative of transconductance, and the P1dB is also caused by this 2nd derivative (generally). So it should help both the IP3 and P1dB, shouldn't it?

    Any follow-up?



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