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Transfering power over a single wire. I need help of the community.

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Bodhisattva

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https://technosyndicate.wordpress.c...-14-khz-transformer-with-a-16000-volt-output/

I have been experimenting with transferring voltage over a single wire and powering a low voltage DC load with it.

The circuit high voltage power supply circuit can be found in a link above, along with a description.

The circuit, that I used to power a DC electric motor consists of an Avramenko fork that charges an electrolytic capacitor that powers a crowbar circuit. The crowbar circuit energizes the load when the voltage in the electrolytic capacitor reaches a certain value.

Current.gif

I am not skilled in electronics so I cannot find the values for R1, R2, C1.
I am afraid to burn the Thyristor because I just came up with values that appear to work.
Usually I look for sample circuits within the datasheet, but in this case there are none.
How do I find the appropriate values of R1, R2, C1?

The thyristor I am using in this circuit is NTE5455.
https://www.nteinc.com/specs/5400to5499/pdf/nte5452_58.pdf
The circuit has to power the DC motor on when the voltage is above 5.1V across the zener diode, than let the voltage grow back to that value and power the DC motor again.

So the motor runs, than it stops, than it runs again.
The resistance across the DC motor is about 70 ohms if measured with a multimeter.

I also header that inductive loads can cause voltage spikes that can burn solid-state devices. Is there any way I can protect the thyristor from that?

When I built the circuit on the breadboard, the 5.1 volt zener diode refused to work as it did with an ordinary lean power supply.

Lean.gif

I theorized that if I place two q loops in series with the diodes of the Avramenko fork, I can keep the high frequency, high voltage electricity from pulsing through my circuit and therefore keep the zener diode from not reacting when the breakdown value is reached.
Do you think that this will be effective in solving the problem?

Are there any good neon devices that can take the place of a Zener Diode?

Q-loop_future.gif

At this point, however the zener circuit does switch the thyristor and the load on when some object is attached to the circuit, that causes the high frequency, high voltage to spark on itself, like a pencil placed a millimeter away from a large metal object, or my hand.

(If this description sounds too esoteric to you, read the entire blog post that I had made, where I describe different strange qualities one-pole electricity by the means of experimentation)

I am a writer and I am unskilled in electronics. I generally avoid solid-state components that are driven by current because I cannot calculate the voltage divider to make them work safely. I cannot read datasheets.

So I need help finding the R1,R2, C1 and I would like you to advise me if the q-loops may be able to solve the problem of high voltage pulsing throughout the DC circuit.

The high voltage penetrates the circuit; maybe because the diodes are not perfect for this circuit, but maybe because it can jump gaps in the conductor that are far longer than those in diode junctions. This high voltage prevents this circuit from being usable for powering ICs and other fine solid-state electronics. They can burn from the pulsing.

Thank you.
Vladimir T.
 

Bodhisattva

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I am a hobbyist. And I am not a scientist. The proof for the fact that this is not pseudoscience is that I have no commercial interest in this 'research' and there is very little that I can claim as my contribution to this idea.

If you want to see it work, you are welcome to come over and witness it yourself. Or build one according to the descriptions.

I forgot the name of the company that sold me the transformer, but I will try to find it in my notes. I think that it doesn't matter as long as you are using a transformer that has a powder core and that runs at kilohertz frequency; a device similar to a fly-back transformer without a built-in diode.

I may shoot some videos of this circuit at work, but I see no point in it because there are many videos about absolutely pseudo-scientific matters, found all over Internet.

What I need help with however is designing a CROWBAR circuit that is completely standard and established.
Thanks.
 
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betwixt

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Sorry, I didn't mean it in any way against you but we do see quite a few messages similar to yours which ignore some basic principes of physics.

If you want to try the crowbar circuit, this will explain their purpose and suggest values:

R1 - not really necessary as the SCR will conduct and limit the available current through it anyway but if you want to leave it in, I suggest 100 Ohms.
R2 - is there to discharge leakage through D2 so it can be quite high in value. I suggest 100K Ohms.
C1 - not really neccessary, it is there to prevent mistriggering of the SCR if RF manages to reach it and to provide a time delay before it can re-trigger. I suggest 100nF.
C2 - depends on how much energy you want to discharge, a good starting value might be 100uF.
D1 - any sensitive gate SCR should work.
D2 - Zener diode with breakdown voltage about 0.6V higher than the voltage you want the circuit to trigger at. Suggest 5.6V
D3 & D4 - any diodes capable of switching faster than the highest frequency you want to pick up.

You should understand that crowbar circuits are used a a brute-force method of shutting down power supplies by shorting them out in case of a fault in order to protect the circuits they are feeding. In your case the amount of power is likely to be so low that moisture in your breath will do the same thing if you breath near it.

Brian.
 

Bodhisattva

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I guess that the power in my circuit would greatly depend on the diodes that the circuit uses. The diodes determine the rate at which the capacitor charges.
I don't know the maximum rate an ideal diode Avramenko Fork would charge a capacitor at a given voltage/frequency.

It would be hard to determine because the line that goes to the circuit does not have any current in it. I had experimented with using sewing pin arrays as diodes (ball to point requires greater charge built up to spark over than point to ball) and got a measurable charge.

How do thyristors limit their gate current? I think that it will be limited by the Zener junction resistance. I don't know that resistance value. I read a Wikipedia article on zener diodes and I don't see how they limit current after breakdown. Do they?

Speaking of science and pseudoscience, I understand that new products have to be made using this principle of operation for people to believe in it.
All the energy saving light bulbs with burnt-out circuitry can be resurrected with this kind of power supply being used.

Thank you for answering my previous questions, although I am still quite unsure if there is any formula to come up with more concrete values.

For now the circuit works with the values you have suggested. It works more stably than with what I had. Stably meaning that the motor produced more torque when it jerked for a moment.

Yes, a small DC motor powered by a single pole high voltage line. :wink: I am not the first one to accomplish this and hopefully not the last one.
I want to make a display where some kind of vehicle uses this power transition method to move around.

Thank you, Brian.
 
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betwixt

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The diodes have very little to do with the rate the capacitor charges, they are essentially there to ensure current only passes in one direction and can't 'back flow' to the source. The rate the capacitor takes charge is set by the available current delivered to it. What does make a difference is the speed at which the diode can react to a change from passing ot blocking the flow, high power diodes are generally slower to react than small ones but a type called a 'Shottky" diode overcomes this to some degree at the expense of other parameters.

A Thristor (SCR) does not limit it's gate current, the junction inside the device has constant voltage characteristics, in other words, it will keep sinking as much as you give it while trying to maintain constant voltage (around 0.6V). In the crowbar circuit you show, the gate current comes from the voltage across the SCR so as soon as it triggers, it removes it's own power source and the gate current is removed.

Zeners also do not limit their current, they drop a voltage of around 0.6V when conducting in the forward direction (+ to Anode) and drop a constant voltage in the reverse direction which is dependant on the type used. You can get them from around 1V up to several hundred volts before they start to conduct. When current is flowing, there is nothing internal to limit it though.

I still think you are on the wrong track regarding power over a single wire though. You should consider that current flows from one point to another and your circuit has no path for it to do so.

Brian.
 

Bodhisattva

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Wrong track?
I am not looking for a practical application of this concept. I just want to popularize the idea that delivering power by the means of a single path is possible.
Maybe one day chassis would deliver energy to circuits that are attached to it.

Thank you, however. Everything seems to work now. The motor is pulsing as it utilizes energy from a single pole power line.
I wonder if I could measure the losses in the circuit to determine how much power actually passes through the single wire power line.
 

sky_123

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I just want to popularize the idea that delivering power by the means of a single path is possible
Every day power is transferred across spaces with no wires, so there are people that are familiar with notions of
power transfer using means other than two wires already.
It is the people not familiar with it that are responsible for the humorous wacky web pages on energy creation or transfer.
If you search the web, you'll easily find them. These people rely on electromagnetic or electrostatic effects and think it
magical or undiscovered, and believe it will revolutionize the world.

In your particular case, I think you've "re-discovered" electrostatics. If you generate a high voltage, then it will tend
to produce ions. These can produce a sufficient stream of ions to have the right conditions to light a fluorescent lamp (i.e. sufficient moving charge, i.e. ion current) if you stick one end of the lamp close to it.
This and electrostatic induction is causing your perceived effects. (I didn't read your page fully, but it was pretty obvious that you should have considered this when you were talking about pins that were close but not touching..). This is not a diode.
 

Bodhisattva

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I don't know. Time will show who is right. I am not discovering anything. Everything I have built originated from somewhere.

If a breakdown that is greater in one direction than in another, that can act as an air diode. I have charged a capacitor with that circuit and got some voltage across it that could be measured. I could also power a small INCANDESCENT light bulb with that chain of pins. I also made a compass turn as current passed through a coil that was energized with this strange pin device. (Not on my website because I couldn't take a picture of it.) Of course ionization happens between the pins. I am not denying that it does.

THERE wasn't an experiment that I had conducted that involved a chain of pins and a CFL bulb because nothing can be proved this way.

I am not trying to revolutionize the world. I avoid deriving conclusions either. That is where the magic is.
 

Bodhisattva

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I am repeating myself again. I avoid drawing conclusions and I am not discovering anything. Just making demonstrations.

Thank you for the video, btw.
 

betwixt

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@sky_123 is on the right track.
To prove the point, instead of 'receiving' the electricity from the single wire via the air, try a direct connection. This will dramatically reduce the losses and should make the circuit very much more efficient. Using the motor, which I assume is designed to run on low voltage, connect ONE side of a battery directly to the wire. If the 'one wire' hypothesis is correct, the motor will turn. I bet it doesn't!

In both a motor and an incandescent lamp, a current has to flow through it to make them operate. The single wire alone doesn't allow this, what you are seeing is either a capacitive or ionized return path for the current. The crowbar circuit is only 'working' because it allows sufficient charge to store before relasing it in one go. The effict isn't the same as 'witricity' or how radio/TV signals travel great distances, they transfer energy using electromahgnetic waves.

Brian.
 

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I cannot find a good website in English that would explain the alternative theory, but experimental lines of several hundred meters were constructed, delivering kilowatts of power to the load. I am not sure how it works but it is definitely no capacitance because the rate at which this circuit charges does not depend on how far from the ground (large capacitor plate) it is.

I want to make a boat that would float in a plastic bowl of water based on the electricity that will pass through this water to prove the concept.
 

tpetar

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I hope that someone will not put his hand into that water to check is it warm or cold.

You can do that, and this is nothing special, its everyday situation when someone gets electrocuted for some reason. In this situation you will not have fine fine control of current, and maybe you will have big problems at fuse box, specially with differential switch.

Add some salt into water for better conductivity, and do not breathe and do not keep your head above the vessel with that salt water.
 

Bodhisattva

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The voltage source is non-lethal. I came in contact with it before. There is no return path so it is like static electricity moving back and forth.
 

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I am not sure how it works but it is definitely no capacitance because the rate at which this circuit charges does not depend on how far from the ground (large capacitor plate) it is.
It's surely capacitance that acts as return path. You'll need serious quantitative measurements to disprove this obvious assumption.

There's however a practical limitation. The more you move to higher frequencies and larger distance, or in other words extend to a transmission path length comparable with wavelength, the larger will be the power share radiated to open space instead of delivered to the load. Thus I wonder about the purpose of your experiments.
 

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Maybe there is a capacitive return path. I am not arguing for or against anything, but I see no obvious place where a capacitive return can occur in an Avramenko Fork circuit.

Maybe a single line that this circuit is powered with acts more like a wave guide than a traditional power line. I had place a ceramic capacitor into this power line and it seems to charge the electrolytic capacitor via an Avramenko Fork almost as quickly.

It is very possible that Nikola Tesla had invented the Avramenko Fork. Unfortunately many of his inventions were not implied because capitalists that sponsored him could not find them to be profitable. Nikola Tesla wanted to use the Ionosphere to transfer power without any power lines to any part of the world that could utilize it but his sponsors turned the idea down because there is no way they could have charged money for the use of electricity this way.

Stanislaw Avramenko had possibly rediscovered the concept.

I cannot find any good websites about this phenomenon in English.
 
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FvM

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I don't see an indication, that the described setup can't be sufficiently described as an electrostatic respectively electromagnetic phenomenon according to Maxwell's laws.

Unfortunately Maxwells formulation isn't well suited for an easy understanding which raises the demand for pre- and pseudoscientific explanations.
 

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I am not skilled enough to describe what I observe in any manner.

- - - Updated - - -

I have yet another question.
I was wondering what determines the rate at which my capacitor charges through an Avramenko Fork and realized that ceramic capacitors charge significantly faster than their electrolytic counterparts, probably because of internal losses. I get a lot higher voltage by using ceramic capacitors.

Maybe that happens because ceramic capacitor that I had used has a lot less capacitance, therefore it can charge faster.

What kind of large value low voltage capacitor should I try to use and what circuit do you think I should use to achieve the desired the output?

Pretty much I am trying to design a circuit that would turn high voltage that accumulates on the ceramic capacitor into low voltage, but higher current and I don't want to use transformers because that would defeat the purpose of me not using a step-down transformer as a basic source of low voltage/high current.

Maybe I should use a transformer. I don't know.

By experimenting today I discovered that it is the qualities of the capacitor that define how much current I can harvest from the single-pole power line.
 

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