Prevention of illegal use of PCB Layout software?

[marce]

..I tend to disagree, its better if the hardware designer does the pcb layout aswell, especially the first prototype, when multiple changes are needed...in my last job, I whizzed a pcb off with eagle and every time I needed to change something (due to spec change etc), I was quickly able to do so...I didn't have to keep going up and hassling a pcb layout guy....because I was that guy.

Sorry but I totally disagree, the best layouts are done by dedicated PCB layout engineers, why do so many high reliability, medical, military companies still use dedicated layout engineers, the days of the do it all engineer are long gone, now you have engineering teams with specialist in each area, electronics, software, DSP, layout etc.
Also most complex packages are pretty easy to use for simple PCB's, in fact with any CAD or EDA system the setting up, be it for simple or complex projects is critical if you want the best quality results.

regarding pcb layout electrical skills with simple smps's, an awful lot involves making sure pulse current loops, or loops with high rise time signals in them are made as narrow as possible.....small as possible loop area....and obviously things like not routing the ground in a power switch loop of an smps round the whole board, and through the control circuitry etc.

Some of the worse SMPS layouts I have seen have been done by engineers, and this is one area I know quite intimately as I am often called in to re-do these layout that have failed in some way, be it EMC or some other problems, and do numerous SMPS layouts for critical equipement and where noise and EMC emissions are not an option.
How many years have you been doing this, cos 20 companies seems a lot unless you are a contractor.

 

[treez]

Also most complex packages are pretty easy to use for simple PCB's

..I think you personally find them easy, because you are the type who is well skilled in this area....looking at the difficulties companies are having suggests that most companies do have big problems with laying out simple PCBs with complex PCB layout packages. Not everybody has your high level IT skills......some people know what they want to do on a PCB, but find difficulty manouvering around the complexity of the pcb layout package.

In my own experience, I regularly go to places where I have to do the layout and the design.
I admit in some places you just hand the schematic over, then support them from there and they do the layout...but not all places are like that.

As I explained, I used three of the big, well-known, expensive PCB layout packages, and struggled badly, in spite of trying to read the manuals etc............I then used Eagle to lay out a more complex PCB than the others, and yet found it was simple beyond belief.
How do you explain that?
I honestly have no connection to Eagle.
I would be happy if Eagle disappeared overnight, as long as the same type of support materials that are available for eagle, became available for the more complex PCB layout packages.
I actually own and bought the licence for one of the more complex pcb layout packages...it cost me around £2K.....however, I am not able to use it.......I did a contract once where they wanted that package used, and I got sacked because I just wasn't able to get into the layout package quick enough
Now I own eagle, and I do that kind of work with incredible simplicity...how do you explain this?

Why is it that you don't want these "dummy guide" style support tutorials made?
After all, you don't have to read them if you don't want to.

If the "dummys guide" type support material was produced......electronics industries would flourish......there would thus be more work for everybody, and as a pcb contractor, you would see your finances increase.

 

[barry]

I give up.

I've tried to keep an open mind. But this is, without question, one of the most ludicrous discussions I've seen. Treez, you have some absurd obsession with a "dummys guide" (I think you mean "dummy's"). You think laying out a PCB is trivial. You seem incapable of using even moderately complex software; you just throw up your hands, and say "this is too hard". And you somehow believe that the electronics industry will "flourish" because of the existence of some magical "dummys guide", which should be published by the government so that everybody will become a PCB layout expert.

 

[treez]

You think laying out a PCB is trivial

..definitely not, I fully appreciate the electrical, thermal , mechanical, financial etc aspects of creating a PCB.

When I say "dummys guides" I am referring not to a specific document called a "dummys guide", but to perhaps a whole host of tutorial material, in the same vain that currently exists for Eagle.

I am fascinated why you object to the production of tutorial material which you don't have to read if you don't want.

I don't believe that "everybody" should become a pcb layout engineer.

Do you believe that most Electronics industries have no trouble with finding staff to correctly use their pcb layout package?
Do you think that electronics companies have significant worries about how they will replace their current pcb layout staff when/if they eventually leave the company?


How do you explain that i can lay out a simple pcb in eagle with no difficulty whatsoever, but can't do that in the more complex pcb layout packages?
Before I met eagle, I bought one of the complex pcb layout packages for £2k, but couldn't use it...or rather struggled too much with it , and lost a contract job because I was just too slow with this pcb package.

I now have Eagle, but wouldn't be concerned of eagle went off the market, as long as another package that made it as easy came on the market....better still, materials were written to allow the laying out of simple pcbs with the more complex pcb layout packages.

Such simplification will inspire great growth in electronics companies....enough to increase the finances of all the following
PCB layout software vendors.
PCB layout application support engineers
PCB layout contractors
Engineering managers.

and not forgetting that struggling old horse................."UK plc" !!

 

[marce]

I am only skilled because of the effort and time I have put in and still devote to learning.
Having worked in and seen the decline of the UK electronics industry for the past 30 years, there is far more than PCB design that is the problem. Also the first on the list of redundancies is the PCB layout people, or they just get rid of them and outsource design, this is common practice in the UK, as PCB design is seen here as you seem to view it, anyone can do it provided they have idiot proof software and idiot guides...the guides are there it just takes a certain level of intelligence to and practice to understand them, maybe it is the complexity of PCB design you find hard.

 

[treez]

As you know, there are two categories of skills needed to do PCB Layout...

1. Electrical, Thermal, Mechanical, EMC, Safety, Financial, Administrative.
2. IT skills needed to find the features you want in whichever PCB Layout package is being used.

The problem is with 2, in that there are insufficient "dummys guide" type materials for it , where making simple pcbs with complex pcb layout packages is concerned.
It is the electronics companies that often suffer, because they can't find staff and can't replace staff when they leave.

number 1 is a problem if staff don't know it......however, its up to them to learn that stuff themselves. Theyre not likely to be able to teach themselves the IT skills of a complex pcb layout software package because
a...theres few good tutorial material
b...the software is too expensive for them to buy and learn at home, and workplaces dont give them enough time to learn these IT points whilst at work

If people dont know part 1 above, then the electronics company should find that out at interview and never let them have the pcb design job in the first place.
However, thats being idealistic, i know plenty of companies pcb design engineers that know very little of the electrical and thermal etc skills needed for pcb layout.....usually an electronic engineer may sit with them whilst they lay out critical routes etc.


Given that companys would de-select potential pcb design staff who dont know part 1 above whilst at the interview stage, are you still against the idea of taking steps to simplfy the use of complex pcb layout packages for use in laying out simple pcbs? If so, why?

Out of interest, how many complex pcb layout packages do you know very well, having higly competent use of them?

 

[marce]

You don't need IT skils just enough intelligence to read the help files or just go on a training course, that's the best way.
And Thank whatever deitety you fancy you don't do 3D mechanical design....
Personally I have laid out complex boards (BGA etc) on Pads, Allegro and Cadstar, and as PCB design is the same, found no difficulty in learning the packages, just took some effert on my part.
But packages are a side point, I do not know why you are so hell bent on decrying them, have you a grudge to bear?

 

[barry]

.
How do you explain that i can lay out a simple pcb in eagle with no difficulty whatsoever, but can't do that in the more complex pcb layout packages?

Well, this might be too snarky an answer, but, maybe lack of skills or effort on your part?

 

[treez]

hell bent on decrying them

..no the pcb design softwares will be gloriously enhanced by the proposals of simplification.
And all who work with them will see their finances increase.

I don't think its lack of skills or effort, as I can do this stuff (simple pcb design) very easily in eagle.

also I dont blame the demise of uk industry on the state of play in the world of pcb layout.

What is your objection to the process of simplification of complex pcb layout packages for laying out simple pcbs?
..it will benefit you in real terms.
-also, you don't have to read any simplification materials if you don't want.

Just enough learning stuff to make it as easy as it is in eagle.....that shouldn't be too much.


...here is an example of just one type of "dummys guide" which is excellent for altium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65hJw_dM5Jk

....I find with altium, the non-altium-authored training materials are by miles the best.
...if there were only a few more of them, like their is with eagle.

 

[Mattylad]

So because an electronic design engineer has learnt how to design a circuit Treez thinks that they will also have all the knowledge required to lay out a good PCB.

Because it's easy really, you just have to learn the package.

And to learn the package you just need loads of dummies guides, dumbed down instructions because he struggles to understand the existing ones.

:lol:

Yes you are correct, I could spend my time writing the dummies guide to CADSTAR, along with videos etc. However something like that is not just a case of sit down and start writing.
I have been trying to write training files for the package - its taken me absolutely months and have only a few - certainly not enough to be a complete instruction on how to use the package.
(And before anyone asks for them NO they are not available for free on here.)

A training course is IMO the best method of initial learning, under the guidance of someone that can teach you the basics of the package, however all that can be offered is about 4 days training because employers will not pay for more
yet the package certainly takes a lot longer to learn. Just like many other big packages like AutoCAD, Inventor, Solidworks, etc. You will still be learning to use those for a long time.

Yet even 4 days is too much for many employers and they want the same information given in 3 days - and thats supposed to make you an expert in using a major CAD package?
When there are so many different ways that people want to work, that there are so many differences in how people lay out PCBs and design boards, so many different output types etc.

Hang on while I finish laughing!

There are ample learning materials available for ALL the CAD packages, perhaps its just that you have either not found them or have not got (or been allowed) the time it takes to read and follow them.

Personally, as an electronic engineer type person (and I use that term cheekily because I'm not really one - I am the CAD jockey you previously referred to, Marce is the engineer) I would want my training information to NOT be dumbed down as a dummies type guide but to contain a heck of a lot more technical information than any that I have already seen.
I want to know every function of the program inside out, its limits and requirements, what I need to do in order to use it and what happens if I do it wrong.

NOT "press this button and do that and this will happen".

Then I can decide which function I use, when to use it and how,. because in PCB design there are so many variables that no single instruction is ever going to appease all designers.

If your doing simple PCB's then use a simple program.
If your only making simple products then you only need simple tools.
If you only use simple tools then you only need simple instructions to use them.

If you buy tools that are more complicated than you need for your simple products then you have the wrong tools and need to invest in more time learning how to use them.
Unfortunately the bean counters decide that they have spent enough beans on the software and learning how to use it can be done on the job, but the bean counters also know squat about how to make a good PCB and how to use the software so think its easy to learn.
So perhaps the problem is not the packages but the people that decide to buy them not committing enough resources to them.

I have used CADSTAR or 20 years+ now, but you know what - I learn something new about it every week. thats something completely new and every week - sometimes sooner (i'll say it twice lol).
The package is so flexible and does so much. I teach this to many and help many use it yet I reckon only know about 60% of it all - there is a heck of a lot more that I would like to know about it - the little stuff that is rarely used.
When I do learn something then what happens? Well they go and change it and I have to learn a shedload more.

I suppose I could try completely reading all the manuals, something which I will openly admit that I have never done because I learn by doing not reading, I fall asleep reading.

Still learning.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, I have watched the above linked video, I watched 5 whole minutes of it and had decided within the first 2 that it was cr@p!

He is doing stuff but not explaining what or why he is doing it, thats not a good tutorial video.
If that's what the others are like I would not be paying for them.

It might be fine if you just want to watch someone do something then do exactly the same yourself, make exactly the same part etc but people don't, they need things explained completely to them, technically.

Not just do this then do that or watch this.

No, there will not be any videos like that from me.

here are some simple videos for CADSTAR.
You can do the same for the other packages. Lots of learning.

 

[treez]

So because an electronic design engineer has learnt how to design a circuit Treez thinks that they will also have all the knowledge required to lay out a good PCB.

...this is a common response to the suggestion for the production of "dummy's guides"........but it is definitely not what is thought.
To my mind, for a smps, say, and most other ccts , the PCB layout is, as you know, an integral part of the design.

 

[Mattylad]

It is, but because you know how to design the circuit does not mean that you know how to design the PCB.

When the guy that invented the wheel invented it - he may not have known how to design the rest of the cart it was attached to, had he tried instead of passing it to the guy that built carts all day he may well have ended up with a Reliant Robin instead of an Audi

 

[FvM]

because you know how to design the circuit does not mean that you know how to design the PCB

Damn right. I feel however tempted to add a complementary statement: If you don't understand the circuit, you can't design the PCB right. (I'm sure, good PCB designers know).

 

[marce]

I agree with FvM, understanding electronics is a required skill for PCB design, as well as a basic understanding of physics (namely wave theory for electrical signals) is also a great help when doing high speed, then having an understanding of dielectric properties is also helpful again for high speed and RF.
An understanding of PCB manufacturing and assembly is also required, then there's EMC, you need to understand that.

Attached is a very basic list of PCB related links, that I think are the very basic relevant information.
My own collection of related information for PCB design now runs to nearly 10Gig, but I am rather more interested in PCB s than the average lunatic, for instance I will starting to read this little tome this weekend:
"Signal integrity and radiated emissions of high-speed digital systems" by two Italian Guys.
There are others like me, who often spend extra time working with the IPC and others to help move PCB design along, and get it truly recognised as an electronics based discipline as much as electrical engineering, software, firmware, DSP etc.

 

[T5400]

Hi

the assembly side was also often under estimate ,it have lot to learn on that aspect
i start looking this in deep when someday one of my board have been produce to over 200,000 unit
save 1$ on assembly turn into 200K $ net profit , for fully understand it i start doing small scale assembly
(ok 10 year later it turn that i now own/run a complete assembly house and now my pcb routing was more a hobby)

but pcb designer may take great learning to go on spot and talk whit assembly shop staff in begin of the project
for thing like through hole soldering by hand, wave or "past in hole" need to knot before route the pcb
then knot how to calculate solder surface tension for part you put on bottom side but have lot more to knot

just as quick example swap a QFN for a TQFP package may save 1-2$ wly ? simple QFN was harder to solder
need precise ~2mil solder think under the chip. go away from this and TCE mismatch of chip and PCB will make it fail under 1000 thermal cycle , so that make stencil opening bit critical and also QFN was not AOI machine friendly so require operator visual inspection and or X-RAY ,all that was not case in a TQFP. and have hundred of thing like that that make great change on assembly price

i see many case that i take a customer board re-route it myself and save up to 50% in assembly cost ..
and got great increase on the MTBF and yield

so yes pcb routing was a art and a science ,even for simple low cost board

p.s. i a other thread that talk about asian CAD i think the biggest difference is that asian think much more to
the assembly side that in north america were have more a mentality of "he look my super hot complex pcb i just joute full of 1005 part and BGA both side ,so increase my salary please"

Best regard

 

[treez]

T5400...now that is interesting QFN vs TQFP.

I had to squeeze some fets onto a part of a small board once, so I had to use these little QFN type fets....the clearance between the pads and the inner, large thermal pad is incredibly small.
-As much as I trust modern technology of component placement machines, I can only think that some of the QFN's will slide about on the solder and short out.

It seems now that most of the fets and led driver ic's have the QFN style now.......sometimes you can get them in like TQFP, but they don't tend to have the inner heat-removal pad.

Making the footprint for the QFNs is very critical, and i'd say for that kind of package, the PCB Layout guy needs a second pair of eyes to check out the footprints just to make sure they are optimal.

I reckon even the engineering manager him/herself should occasionally open up the component library now and then and check out the QFN pad sizing and spacing...its that critical.
Now, who doesn't think that the engineering manager doesn't need a dummy's guide to allow him/herself to learn how to inspect the component libraries of a complex pcb layout software package?......................in my H.O., the engineering manager should do this literally "behind the pcb layout guy's back", so that he can really check that things like footprints are being done right.

 

[T5400]

Hi

not forgot that it huge volume market that drive the industry

so appel or else have money to do fancy stencil and MTBF for cell phone was not primary concern

QFN was ok but must carefully on footprint design and specially the thermal tab and it associated "past" layer
as for placement by itself it not a issue even for older machine.
you may have up to 25% off pad and it will self align on pad by surface tension ;-)

problem come on inspection , but that may skipped if your assembly process was right and make good functional test later

but if for a part yo have opportunity to not use it in QFN it a good idea especially if you not have other QFN on the board

also if you closely place part please refer to IPC-7351 (preferably Nominal) courtyard for let place for AOI machine to see solder
placed part to tight make rework hard and inspection to ,so increase cost each time you invoke human on assembly
it not good and expensive ...

p.s. last note about QFN footprint ,please resist to temptation to reuse a QFN footprint for another part
it have simply to much small variation of thermal pad geometrie for do this ,and bad thermal pad design was most common issue on assembly ,and if one pad was bad it cost a new stencil so 300- 500$ each time ,and remember stencil shop knot what it do for stencil design but it do it based on pad YOU put on the pcb

Best regard

Best regard

 

[treez]

Thanks T5400, when you say stencil you mean the solder paste stencil?
Also, since you are in China, can you tell us which PCB Layout Software package that you use.
As far as I can see, the most successful Electronics design company in the world today is China, so youmust have some good ideas about PCB Layout too.

I hear that in China all the Electronics Companies are Government owned, which has definite advantages, because the government can get the various companies to pool their knowledge and skills and work toward the success of the Chinese Electronics industry altogether.
Since all the Chinese Electronics companys are closely Government controlled, is it true that the Government has instilled that only two different PCB Layout packages will be used?.......a simple one for simple pcbs, and amore complex one for the more complex stuff?
Can you say what are the pcb layout packages used in China? Can a Chinese company freely decide which pcb layout package to use, or must it seek Government advice?

 

[T5400]

Hi

yes solder paste stencil

eee no was not in china ,was in north america just dyslexia + typo + was french speaking ;-)

i actually use Cadstar , previously P-CAD that was really easy to use and intuitive but bit outdated
and need to have good scripting (i program my pick & place from cad script)
since i hate altium for die P-CAD and not like Pads for be non intuitive ,i go to Cadstar and it have excellent support
so happy whit it ,i also use time to time pulsonix and eagle (when i have absolutely no choice)

when look into china forum see many protel/altium (thank to google translate)

Best regard

 

[Mattylad]

I see that this is not the only place Treez is going on about this.

A 1 man mission to get dumbed down instructions, even dumber than actually do exist.