Non zero output from LM358 even though input is zero

[Arbit1]

Hi
I was using LM358 as voltage comparator in non inverting configuration
I gave 5V to vcc and 2.5V to inverting pin through a potentiometer
The issue is I am getting a output voltage of approx 3.8V even when the supply to the non inverting terminal is zero

I get output no matter I set the voltage of the non inverting pin zero or less than or more than that of inverting terminal
Also the ic gives the same output when non inverting is given some voltage and inverting is zero

The ic output gets zero only when both inverting and non inverting terminals are zero

Please help me to sort this

I desire to get high output only when the voltage at non inverting is greater than that at inverting i.e 2.5V

 

[FvM]

Either the LM358 device is defective, or there's something wrong with your circuit. The reported behaviour doesn't comply with known device behaviour.

I'd prefer a complete circuit diagram, including VCC and GND pins.

 

[danadakk]

Beware of phase reversal problems if your input violates CM range
at its inputs.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-036.pdf

And some latchup until power removed -

Op amp - symptoms of latchup?

How does a latchup manifest in op amps? We have an LTC1150 that seems to stop working properly. By the latter, I mean it's in a PID loop and the loop just... stops working and sits at a particular

electronics.stackexchange.com

https://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/an/AN4428.pdf

AD8675 phase reserval - Documents - Amplifiers - EngineerZone

Question Have you information on the phase reversal for the AD8675? Answer The AD8675 does not phase reverse when input is within input voltage range IVR.

ez.analog.com

Regards, Dana.

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

A comparator is a comparator,
An Opamp is an Opamp.

There's a good reason why there are two different types. Both with different requirements and different operation conditions.
Sadly they share the same schematic symbol.
And sadly many posts of hobbyists misuse the one for the other function.

In some cases it may work. But in many cases there will be problems.

Thus I generally recommend to use the correct device for the correct function.
**
In opposite to a simulation a real opamp and comparator circuit needs power supply stabilizing capacitors.
******

You tell about the inverting input.
But you don't tell about the noniverting input, the output circuitry and the power supply circuitry.

Thus - as FvM already wrote - we need to see the whole story.

Klaus

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

Missing correct ground jumper to pin 4. Probe and verify.

LM358 make really poor comparators , expect >5 mV to 3.5V swing. with your settings. Vin+ cannot exceed 3.5V .... Vcm range limit for Vcc=5V

 

[Easy peasy]

Vin+ cannot exceed 3.5V .... Vcm range limit for Vcc=5V

the above is likely the issue, OP appears not to have read data sheet for Vin range conditions

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

You must define your input and output expectations and don't use an LM358 as a comparator (a.k.a. limiter, slicer, level shifter) unless you do not exceed all the constraints in the datasheet and don't care about Voh.

Start with expectations, consider CMOS inverter as a crude but fast rail-to-rail Vdd/2 "signal slicer" Use the 4000 series CMOS with resistor feedback and AC coupled also works with care on RC =T

But if you want precision. read the datasheets until you understand what fits your expectations or "specs" and never make assumptions that all your connections are OK until probed.

 

[FvM]

According to post #1, the OP was operating inside CM range. LM358 doesn't expose phase reversal, respectively as long as one input is within common mode limits, you'll see the expected output voltage according to input difference voltage sign.

Many things said in this thread are correct in principle, but don't actually apply to the reported case. There's e.g. nothing against using LM358 as comparator if you are satisfied with its speed.

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

as long as one input is within common mode limits, you'll see the expected output voltage according to input difference voltage sign.

Are you sure?
I always thought that if one input is outside CMIR then the whole difference input stage (both emitter) current may drop to zero and thus the output state is undetermined.

Many things said in this thread are correct in principle, but don't actually apply to the reported case. There's e.g. nothing against using LM358 as comparator if you are satisfied with its speed.

I agree. No phase reversal. And if you are correct with the CMIR then it should work as comparator. Low speed, maybe unsymmetries in timing and levels....
I even saw in some (mature) OPAMP datasheets application schematics where they use them as comparators.

**

I repeatedly remind about the difference between OPAMPs and comparators, especially for the unexperienced members. They should know that only some OPAMPS can be used as comparators ... but many OPAMPs are not suitable. And that they have to expect reduced performance.
(it´s the same the other way round)

***

I had to learn it the hard way: I designed (in my early electronics days) a circuit that protects speakers against DC. At a dedicated DC threshold they should switch OFF a relay. So far so good.
I tested it and it worked ... for low DC voltages. I didn´t think about testing at high DC voltages.
But then one day ( I tested a self made audio amplifier) a fuse blew and high DC voltage was on the speaker. The relay switched OFF ... but only for much less than a second .. and due to phase reversal of the OPAMP the relay switched ON again. My really expensive bass speakers got damaged.
I studied what caused the problem. And from this time on I think I never used am OPAMP as comparator anymore.

Klaus

 

[FvM]

OP LM358 and comparator LM393 have similar input stages with same static characteristic, the latter with an additional circuit to speed-up dynamic large signal behavior

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

thank you for the schematics.
Now I see the 6uA current source (left picture) still will work when one input is close to VCC.
Makes sense.

Klaus

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

Arbit1​

Did you confirm your disconnected gnd jumper for V- pin 4?

Always probe every pin to understand why to verify your understanding.

 

[Arbit1]

I replaced the opamp with LM393

The issue is when I test the comparator individually ,it works fine, i.e it will give output only when noninverting is greater than inverterting

But when I connect it in the whole circuit the same issue occurs of giving output when noninverting is zero

PLEASE HELP ME TO SORT IT

The four comparators marked in the circuit have issue

 

[danadakk]

I get a sim that makes sense. Note I have swept Inv input > 3V which violates input
CM range, but datasheet seems to convery as long as one input in CM range all is good.

Regards, Dana.

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

I replaced the opamp with LM393

The issue is when I test the comparator individually ,it works fine, i.e it will give output only when noninverting is greater than inverterting

But when I connect it in the whole circuit the same issue occurs of giving output when noninverting is zero

PLEASE HELP ME TO SORT IT

The four comparators marked in the circuit have issue

List all the voltages on each pin during this fault condition

--- Updated Sep 23, 2021 ---

Design fault appears to be pin 3 is grounded on both IC1,2 .

Also diode in FET does not protect it from flyback coil very high +ve voltage spike on turnoff. You must add reverse voltage diode across each coil. Do this 1st.

Also Q1 - C5 junction is floating and depends on parasitic leakage and input bias current. Bad choice of integrator. No need for Q1 if R3 is in series from IC3A-p3

 

[KlausST]

Hi,

I agree with SunnySkyGuy.

The schematic is a mess. It contains drawing mistakes, schematic mistakes, missing informations...
This makes it hard for us to understand the function ... and the problem.
If you want we can discuss about them. (way more than 10 issues)

What software are you using? Did you run an ERC?

Klaus

 

[D.A.(Tony)Stewart]

It looks like it was done in a Paint program.

I think it could be fixed. There are a lot of things to learn.

- quickly learn a PCB design tool. There are a lot of mistakes.

- Do lots of reading on how-to application books from archive.org.
https://archive.org/details/2015-horowitz-the-art-of-electronics-3rd-ed/

https://archive.org/search.php?query=national+semiconductor+analog

I still roll my eyes, thinking back to my first PCB layout disaster at home.

 

[FvM]

Might be Eagle schematic. It has these famous hidden supply pins in some libraries.
Anyway, come back with a schematic that shows all IC connections including supplies.

--- Updated Sep 23, 2021 ---

I checked with an old Eagle version. You can manually add supply pins either to A or B symbol with Invoke command. Or connect implicite supply pins, but I would strongly discourage doing so.

--- Updated Sep 23, 2021 ---

As mentioned by KlausST, simply pressing ERC shows all missing pin connections.

 

[d123]

Hi,

If the circuit is real or simmed, use an oscilloscope to see if it is oscillating. May need hysteresis.

--- Updated Sep 23, 2021 ---

Hi again,

According to the 2V to 36V LM393 datasheet section called '8.2.2.1 Input Voltage Range', and if your Vref is only 2.5V, and the supply voltage is 5V, that shouldn't happen as common-mode range is 0V to Vcc -1.5V and you don't seem to violate any of the rules in that section of the datasheet. Could be that no decoupling/bulk capacitors on the comparators' supply pins drags the supply voltage down when the comparators switch from high to low and that droop shifts Vref as they live on the same supply line, but I doubt that is the problem. Vref isn't static, by the way it moves a little bit when the comparator switches, from what I remember.

If you are simulating this, see if you can do a transient analysis or whatever it's called in your program and look at the signals on a couple (or ideally all four) of the comparator In+ and In- and their Output pins, and on the supply line. Everyone has a favourite simulating tool, I use the free version of the TI one - once you get used to it, it's easy to use and you can look at lots of signals in one transient, and it has a great habit of getting stuck/slowing down a lot with comparator circuits that are oscillating so you know very quickly what the problem is.

Great hint: Spaghetti wiring is bad, replacing it with meaningfully-named jumpers is good.

If you are doing this on a breadboard, I strongly suggest (if you haven't already), taking a deep breath and becoming un-angry and un-confused at the non-functioning circuit, then getting a piece of paper and a pen, and drawing the circuit you actually have on the breadboard by following your connections one by one and checking each twice to make sure the breadboard isn't playing tricks on you such as a wire/connection not where you thought it was - frustrating and maddening minutes to hours can be spent with gremlins like that.

As mentioned, you should say what value the pull-ups are, what Vref is, show any decoupling capacitors on the regulators and the ICs. And what's on the other side of that connector.

Hope you've already solved the issue.