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Lightning and Heavy Rain.

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Hi again,

Let us go upwards and meet the clouds.
Some of them look rather white hence said being light; others are almost black (dark) said being heavy.

Assuming the same sunlight above them, is this difference in their gray color (light to dark) due to their thickness only (their height if you like)?

Kerim
 

These links explain the darkness. The second also gets into other colors.

**broken link removed**
Cloud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the US Midwestern states where violent thunderstorms and hail are common, it is well known that green clouds are a harbinger of hail.

John
 

Thank you John for the two links.

But I couldn't open the first one, I am not sure why :cry:
And the second gives, as usual, a rather very broad answer ;-)

Cheers,

Kerim
 

Hi again,

Here is an important question related to the subject and about an experiment that I wished I was able doing since 35 years ago :???:

Will Hydrogen molecules in air can bear on them some water molecules (if present as vapor/gas) acting as balloons?

As we know:
The molecular weight of dry air is 28.966.
The molecular weight of water vapor is 18.02.
The molecular weight of Hydrogen is 2.016.

In theory in the least, one Hydrogen molecule holding with it one molecule of water vapor would have and average molecular weight of 20.036.
So we can deduce that H2 + H2O (gas) are lighter than air so both can go up as a balloon does :wink:

I look forward hearing what real experiments say :smile:
For example, there might be a sort of repulsion between the molecules of H2 and H2O when in gaseous form.

Kerim
 

Perhaps I don't understand your question. Both water vapor and hydrogen are lighter than air. The water vapor doesn't need to"hitch a ride" on hydrogen to rise in the atmosphere. There is also very little hydrogen in the lower atmosphere where most water vapor is located.

Along the same line of reasoning, why doesn't hydrogen stick to nitrogen making a net formula weight of 30, which would sink in the average atmosphere? (I am not really asking that as a question, but rather as an example of the logic.) I suspect you may be confusing hydrogen bonding between water molecules and the interaction of hydrogen with water. Hydrogen does not hydrogen bond with water molecules.

Sure, in gases molecules will bump into one another and may even be slightly attracted to each other, but molecular vibrations and rotations soon (<<10E-12 seconds) cause them to separate. Thus, the gases you mention tend to act as relatively ideal gases in our atmosphere with densities directly proportional to their molecular weights or atomic weights in the case of monoatomic gases like argon.

John
 

Thank John for replying.

There is also very little hydrogen in the lower atmosphere where most water vapor is located.

This is the basic idea I look for.
If we generate hydrogen in the lower atmosphere (as we will see, this could be done naturally), will its molecules go upward alone or each may take a water molecule with it? :grin:

Kerim
 

The nature of a gas involves isolated molecules (as long as there are no chemical reactions, creating new molecules). I'm not aware of an example where strong physical bounds are causing an execption from this behaviour. If it exists, surely not between polar water and abolutely non-polar hydrogen.

The go-upwards tendency of hydrogen shouldn't be overated by the way. Once hydrogen is mixed with other atmospheric gases, it will separate only very slowly. The other point to be considered with your experiment is the low partial pressure of water vapour under normal athmosheric conditions, only a few percent maximum, according to the boiling point of water.
 

The hydrogen will rise on its own (like helium does). In fact, hydrogen has adverse effects on the upper atmosphere and is an indirect greenhouse gas (Other Greenhouse gases - Hydrogen). Hydrogen and water molecules do not stick together any more than hydrogen sticks to nitrogen in the atmosphere.

John
 

Hi John,

Hydrogen and water molecules do not stick together any more than hydrogen sticks to nitrogen in the atmosphere.

So according to the experiments you heard of, there is no possibility for hydrogen and water molecules to stick together so that the water molecule can have a chance to go upward and be replaced by another one from a nearby water as of oceans (due to low partial pressure of water vapour in air).

Kerim
 
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Water vapor goes up naturally. It is quite a bit lighter than air. That is the basic reason that we have rain. If it were attached to hydrogen, it would actually be heavier and less buoyant .

When FvM and I refer to behavior of gases according to the ideal gas law, are you familiar with what we are saying?

John
 
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You are right John, water vapor is already lighter than air. I wonder how I missed this point in the first place :oops:

The idea started in my mind to explain why the ocean/sea water is salty and specifically with NaCl.
Na and Cl are very special substances.

Na is a very light metal that cannot stay free in nature.
Cl is a rather heavy gas and also cannot stay free in nature.

Salty water is much easier to be decomposed than pure water.
In any case, an external energy is needed to decompose water.
Even a burning piece of coal can decompose water if immersed into it.

Usually ocean/sea water is continuously agitated. On the surface, we can easily notice in daylight bright spots like coming from tiny mirrors.

Finally, and perhaps I am imagining things, the random agitation of the water surface may form brief small concave mirrors and their focus could hit just a few molecules of NaCl ions and produce Na and Cl. But since Na is very light and Cl is heavy, they can quickly recombine at the surface while releasing H2 and O2 in the air.
What made me believe that this may occur is that O2 density over the oceans and seas are a bit higher than over lands. Obviously there might be other reasons for this phenomenon to exist but I was pleased thinking about the H2/O2 one to justify the huge salty water on our globe :-D

Kerim
 

You are right John, water vapor is already lighter than air. I wonder how I missed this point in the first place :oops:

The idea started in my mind to explain why the ocean/sea water is salty and specifically with NaCl.
Na and Cl are very special substances.

Na is a very light metal that cannot stay free in nature.
Cl is a rather heavy gas and also cannot stay free in nature.

Kerim

You maybe confusing NaCl with the elements that react to make it. I do not believe that NaCl is photochemically decomposed to sodium and chlorine with sunlight after being filtered by the atmosphere. NaCl is quite transparent to 200 nm or so -- I have never tried to go lower because of absorption by air.

This is a bit off-topic, but with regard to your question about hydrogen and water, hydrogen and chlorine combine explosively in the presence of sunlight and adequate concentrations, of course.

John
 

hydrogen and chlorine combine explosively in the presence of sunlight and adequate concentrations, of course.

Fortunately this is not the case between hydrogen and chlorine ion (in water) even in the presence of sunlight :wink:

Added:
If NaCl is not resonant to any light wavelength reaching the surface then the whole idea is good only for movies :-D

Added:
But here we are not talking about NaCl we have in the kitchen but on ions in water. Would this makes any difference? I have no idea :???:

Added:
On the other hand, I try to explain why we have a rather heavy rain for a short time when a serious lightning occurs over our heads :wink:
This could be explained if in the clouds many water molecules (not as vapor) are sticked to the hydrogen ones. When the hydrogen burns, these water molecules have to find quickly their way to ground :-D
 
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Today the US military is tampering with weather such as creating earthquakes and other similar natural disasters.

These are minor matters in comparison to others (perhaps hard for you to even imagining them) and the high technology used by the media can cover up any truth (actually anything revealed globally is deliberately wrong or incomplete at best).

The good news is that the majority of people on the globe are happy for being well informed so, practically speaking, there is no problem :wink:

It rains here today but without lightning... not enough hydrogen in the clouds :sad:

Kerim
 

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