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    Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi,

    can anyone give me an advice how to get rid of the annoying sound of a phase-fired controlled uplight?

    The dimmer has the number HY-3360C. I already disassembled the circuitry. Below you can find a picture of the dimmer, the schematic and a Spice simulation.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'm very thankfull for any tip, the noise drives me nuts .

    greets

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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    By 'noise' do you mean the acoustic buzzing you can hear from the unit or the interference it causes on nearby radio equipment?

    The buzzing sound it might make is from the rapid increase and decrease in magnetic field in the inductor as the triac fires. They physically 'shake' due to slack in the wires and it is that you hear. As the inductor should run cool, the best solution is to pot it in epoxy resin to hold it all together tightly.

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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    with the phase-angle control it is possible to reduce noise if begin feeding with the begin of half wave to some angle, not from some angle to end of halfwave.
    such type of angle control can provide dimmer based on HV mosfet.



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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi Brian,

    Quote Originally Posted by betwixt View Post
    By 'noise' do you mean the acoustic buzzing you can hear from the unit or the interference it causes on nearby radio equipment?
    No, the buzzing is caused by the dimmer itself. No other electrical device is included.

    Quote Originally Posted by betwixt View Post
    The buzzing sound it might make is from the rapid increase and decrease in magnetic field in the inductor as the triac fires. They physically 'shake' due to slack in the wires and it is that you hear. As the inductor should run cool, the best solution is to pot it in epoxy resin to hold it all together tightly.
    Interesting, never thought about that. So I should fill up the inductur shown in the first picture with epxoy resin?! Can you recommend a suitable one? As you mentioned the inductor should run cool, I'm curious about the thermal properties of the resin.

    greets

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi kdolvich,

    Quote Originally Posted by kdolvich View Post
    with the phase-angle control it is possible to reduce noise if begin feeding with the begin of half wave to some angle, not from some angle to end of halfwave.
    such type of angle control can provide dimmer based on HV mosfet.
    thank you for your input, but if it is possible I want to fix the existing circuitry instead of replacing it. If I'm not able to get rid of the noise for the shown dimmer, I will consider your suggested approach.

    Thanks!



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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Interesting, never thought about that. So I should fill up the inductur shown in the first picture with epxoy resin?! Can you recommend a suitable one? As you mentioned the inductor should run cool, I'm curious about the thermal properties of the resin.
    I'm not sure where in the World you are so I don't know what may be available locally. In the UK, I would suggest "Araldite" but I'm sure the same stuff is available under different names elsewhere. It is a two part (two tubes) epoxy resin, you mix equal amounts from the tubes, give it a quick stir then flood the inductor with it. When it sets you have a solid block with the inductor completely encased. It is important that the resin flows around and between the turns on the core so any air gaps are filled.

    Many commercially available filter inductors are already 'potted' in resin but I doubt you would find one that would be a drop-in replacement for the one you have.

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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi,

    If you want to find the source of the sound you could use an isolated stethoscope.
    If you don't have then a small tube could work. One end close to the ear, with the other end scan your circuit.

    Klaus
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi Brian,

    Thank you for the suggested epoxy. All two component epoxies I used so far are not really liquid when they are mixed, they are pretty high viscous (like cold honey).

    greets

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi Klaus,

    Quote Originally Posted by KlausST View Post
    Hi,

    If you want to find the source of the sound you could use an isolated stethoscope.
    If you don't have then a small tube could work. One end close to the ear, with the other end scan your circuit.

    Klaus
    thank you, I never would have thought of investigating the circuitry by a stethoscope . Unfortunatly the noise is really loud. It can be heard from ~5 meters.

    greets



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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    As long as you temporarily build a barrier around the inductor (or remove it from the board first) the viscous epoxy should work. Don't use anything that sets in 5 minutes, a slower setting type will allow enough time for the thick resin to find its way into all the gaps. If you can, wrap some tape (3M or similar) around the outside first to build a dam, preventing the resin flowing where you don't want it.

    Brian.
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    "SCR talk" is also a feature of large SCR installations due to the rise time of current in the devices

    potting with "araldite" or similar 2 part potting goo or transformer varnish may well help with the sound - but you will also hear it in the filament of the bulb ( in a quiet ambient ) - the only way around this is a large series choke to limit the rise time of the current ....


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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi,

    Unfortunatly the noise is really loud. It can be heard from ~5 meters.
    The point with the tube is not the loudness..it's to locate the part that generates the noise.
    In an SMPS often some noise is generated by ceramics capacitors (due to their piezo effect).
    With the tube you can find out which capacitor has to be replaced (maybe with a foil type).

    Klaus
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy peasy View Post
    "SCR talk" is also a feature of large SCR installations due to the rise time of current in the devices

    potting with "araldite" or similar 2 part potting goo or transformer varnish may well help with the sound - but you will also hear it in the filament of the bulb ( in a quiet ambient ) - the only way around this is a large series choke to limit the rise time of the current ....
    Unfortunately there is not a lot of space left to place an additional a large choke, maybe between the terminal block, the fuse and the potentiometer as there is also an corresponding printing on the board. But there are no associated solder pads on the bottom side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KlausST View Post
    Hi,

    The point with the tube is not the loudness..it's to locate the part that generates the noise.
    In an SMPS often some noise is generated by ceramics capacitors (due to their piezo effect).
    With the tube you can find out which capacitor has to be replaced (maybe with a foil type).

    Klaus
    Ok, I thought the large noise would make it impossble to locate the spot. I will give it a try!

    greets



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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Just pot the existing choke in epoxy resin, preferably a variety that does not harden in minutes but in hours.
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi,

    I searched for an epoxy resin which is processable for a longer time and which is available at my local DIY store.
    I came up with this one [1], which is processable for 90 minutes and is rated for temperatures up to 100 °C.

    Is there anything that speaks against my choice?

    [1] https://www.uhu.com/en/product-page/plus-endfest/3950

    greets



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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi,

    UHU Endfest becomes very hard, almost no elasticity.
    For electronics I usually use some potting with at least a bit of end elasiticity to keep force caused by thermal stress low.

    In an electronics store you should find suitable potting for electronics.

    Klaus
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Search for 'potting compound' but the UHU resin should be OK. I very much doubt the inductor temperature would rise significantly in that application unless you were controlling very high power (several hundred Watts) lighting.

    Brian.
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi Klaus,

    Quote Originally Posted by KlausST View Post
    Hi,

    UHU Endfest becomes very hard, almost no elasticity.
    For electronics I usually use some potting with at least a bit of end elasiticity to keep force caused by thermal stress low.

    In an electronics store you should find suitable potting for electronics.

    Klaus
    it is pretty hard to choose an epoxy resin based on online datasheets as I do not know how a property like "Super-strong (up to 170 kg/cmē)" influences the final epoxy condition, by menas I'm not able to imagne how it "feels" when it is cured.
    Unfortunatly I have no well-assorted electronic store in my area, where I could discuss such things with the salesclerk. Maybe you can recommend an epoxy resin.

    I was not able to find a long processable version of the resin (Araldite) suggested by Brian, all versions I found (on Amazon,to save shipping costs) are rapid ones (5 minutes) or also extra strong.

    greets



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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    Hi,

    Maybe you can recommend an epoxy resin.
    No need to be a real shop, an online shop is O.K. as well.
    No need to be an epoxy type, polyurethane for example is also good.


    https://uk.farnell.com/c/chemicals-a...ting-compounds

    There are many other online shops, distributors ....

    Klaus
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    Re: Uplight dimmer based on phase-fired controller: Noise Issue

    your: www.uhu.com/en/product-page/plus-endfest/3950

    is worth a try - get plenty on - esp around all the wires .... on the core ... heat the whole thing to 35 deg C to aid the flow of the goo into all the spaces ....



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