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    Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Good day everyone! I need your help on this one. I'd like to derive the equation for the closed-loop input impedance of the circuit attached. The final form of the equation is also shown below.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2020-01-13 19_39_32-Albert Malvino, David Bates-Electronic Principles-McGraw-Hill Education (201.png 
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    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2020-01-13 19_35_59-Albert Malvino, David Bates-Electronic Principles-McGraw-Hill Education (201.png 
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    Here's what I have tried
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2020-01-13 20_03_43-v o v - OneNote.png 
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ID:	157316

    I was stuck. Can you tell what other route I can take to go about this derivation? Thanks!

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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Zin(CL) formula is not correct, instead of R2, an effective resistance of R2 + RL||R1 must be put in.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by FvM View Post
    Zin(CL) formula is not correct, instead of R2, an effective resistance of R2 + RL||R1 must be put in.
    Is this the thevenin resistance seen by the source? I was able to make it appear in my derivation just a moment ago.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    It's the impedance seen with Av = 0 and Rout = 0.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    One alternative derivation:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.PNG 
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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by sutapanaki View Post
    One alternative derivation:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Capture.PNG 
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    Hi sutapanaki. Why do you assume that R1 is infinite?



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    R1 is the resistor that complicates a bit the derivation of the input resistance. So, if it were not there, results will be easier. Assuming R1 infinite, I find those 3 things Rio, Rn and Rd. Then I combine them and re-introduce R1 back to get the final result.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by sutapanaki View Post
    R1 is the resistor that complicates a bit the derivation of the input resistance. So, if it were not there, results will be easier. Assuming R1 infinite, I find those 3 things Rio, Rn and Rd. Then I combine them and re-introduce R1 back to get the final result.
    How did you get R2+RL/1+Av? I'd like to adapt your technique. The one I know is too involved. Yours seems fast. Can you refer me to a literature that explains this type of method?



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    You can easily find the input impedance using the superposition.

    if Vo is the output of the op-amp, V+ its non-inverting input and V- its inverting input and Iin the stimulus:

    1) exclude Iin, then (Va-) = Vo*RL/(R1+RL)
    2) short Vo, then (Vb-) = Iin*[R1*RL/(R1+RL)+R2]

    Applying superposition (V-)=(Va-) + (Vb-) = Vo*RL/(R1+RL)+Iin*[R1*RL/(R1+RL)+R2]

    We know that Vo = A*[(V+) - (V-)], but (V+)=0 thus Vo=-A*(V-)

    Substituting Vo:

    V- = -A*(V-)*RL/(R1+RL) + Iin*[R1*RL/(R1+RL)+R2]

    Zin = (V-)/Iin = [R1*RL/(R1+RL) + R2]/[1 + A*RL/(R1+RL)]

    If we call, nw, B=RL/(R1+RL) we will have:

    Zin = (R1*B+R2)/(1+A*B)

    in case R2 >> R1*B then we can approximate Zin = R2/(1+A*B)

    Sorry, in my derivation I exchanged the label R1 with RL (R1 is the output series and RL is to ground)


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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by albbg View Post
    You can easily find the input impedance using the superposition.

    if Vo is the output of the op-amp, V+ its non-inverting input and V- its inverting input and Iin the stimulus:

    1) exclude Iin, then (Va-) = Vo*RL/(R1+RL)
    2) short Vo, then (Vb-) = Iin*[R1*RL/(R1+RL)+R2]

    Applying superposition (V-)=(Va-) + (Vb-) = Vo*RL/(R1+RL)+Iin*[R1*RL/(R1+RL)+R2]

    We know that Vo = A*[(V+) - (V-)], but (V+)=0 thus Vo=-A*(V-)

    Substituting Vo:

    V- = -A*(V-)*RL/(R1+RL) + Iin*[R1*RL/(R1+RL)+R2]

    Zin = (V-)/Iin = [R1*RL/(R1+RL) + R2]/[1 + A*RL/(R1+RL)]

    If we call, nw, B=RL/(R1+RL) we will have:

    Zin = (R1*B+R2)/(1+A*B)

    in case R2 >> R1*B then we can approximate Zin = R2/(1+A*B)

    Sorry, in my derivation I exchanged the label R1 with RL (R1 is the output series and RL is to ground)
    Hi albbg. Thanks for your time. Can this method work when finding the output impedance?

    I keep getting a wrong result. Here's what I did.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2020-01-14 21_33_03-v o v - OneNote.png 
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ID:	157340

    The negative feedback is supposed to increase the output impedance but my equation says otherwise. Can someone point out what did I do wrong in my derivations.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Negative feedback always decreases the output impedance. If something external tries to change the output voltage then the negative feedback sends the change to the inverting input to cancel the change.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Audioguru View Post
    Negative feedback always decreases the output impedance. If something external tries to change the output voltage then the negative feedback sends the change to the inverting input to cancel the change.
    But it is aa Current controlled current source. Feedback's purpose here is to increase the output impedance.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Positive feedback (bootstrapping) increases the output impedance.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by Audioguru View Post
    Positive feedback (bootstrapping) increases the output impedance.
    Is my derivation correct though? My book says Zo = (1+AV)R1.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmdrdo View Post
    How did you get R2+RL/1+Av? I'd like to adapt your technique. The one I know is too involved. Yours seems fast. Can you refer me to a literature that explains this type of method?
    Look for Dr.Middlebrook's Extra element theorem. or any material regarding that.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by sutapanaki View Post
    Look for Dr.Middlebrook's Extra element theorem. or any material regarding that.
    Hello sutapanaki, I just read about just now. In your solution, you used R1 to be the Extra element, can we choose other element of the circuit as the extra element and arrive at the same answer?



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Yes, you can choose another element as the extra element, of course. The formulation of the result will be different, because you will have to find Rn and Rd from the point of view of the new extra element. But you can always manipulate algebraically the results for different extra elements to look the same at the end. And of course, when you substitute the numerical values, you must get the same result.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by paulmdrdo View Post
    Is my derivation correct though? My book says Zo = (1+AV)R1.
    I presume you have to calculate the output impedance seen by the load, that is by RL. To do this you have to substitute the load with a generator and calculate the current flowing through the generator and the voltage across it, then apply Z=V/I.
    I used a current generator and I did the following derivation (neglecting input and output impedance of opamp, I considered it as ideal, but the finite OL gain):

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In this case we have a current generator so we need a very high impedance, ideally infinite. The feedback regardless to its value (the op-amp is ideal here) allows to greatly increase the impedance since the voltage is boosted by the OL gain of the amplifier.
    Last edited by albbg; 14th January 2020 at 22:31.



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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Applying Blackman's impedance formula gives the output impedance in 1 line. And yes, it is R1*(1+A)


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    Re: Finding the input impedance of CCCS

    Quote Originally Posted by sutapanaki View Post
    Applying Blackman's impedance formula gives the output impedance in 1 line. And yes, it is R1*(1+A)
    I think the application of the Blackman's theorem is not so immediate. The result, of course, is the same in any case some calculation have to be done.


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