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    microwave power combiner/divider

    Dear all
    Hi,
    I have simulated a two way power combiner, two inputs port1 and port 2 are excited by two excitations with the same amplitude and combined in outport port3, but the resuts of s21 and s31 hqve a positive values (+ 2dB).
    My question is, can have a positive values for s21 and s31 in dB?

    I check several times my promgram, I do not know where is the problem.
    I have used the fdtd method for simulation.
    i have extract s21 by a ratio of the incident waveform at port 1 and the transmitted waveform at port 2 ( Fourier transforms).

    i will be very grateful for your help and advice.

    Best regards

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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Combiners/Dividers are passive elements so they have losses, not gain..
    How did you simulate his combiner?? Which EM simulator have you used ?? What is your port and substrate configuration ??



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    We have used fdtd
    configuration
    inputs: port1, port2
    output: port3
    RT 5880

    I want to know if it's right or wrong: for the calculation of s21, the two ports port1 and port2 will be excited at the same time by two excitations and we calculate the fields?



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Quote Originally Posted by Satellitmph2 View Post
    We have used fdtd
    configuration
    inputs: port1, port2
    output: port3
    RT 5880
    I want to know if it's right or wrong: for the calculation of s21, the two ports port1 and port2 will be excited at the same time by two excitations and we calculate the fields?
    Ports are not excited simultaneously by definition of s-parameters.The simulator does not do too..
    If this structure is a "Planar Wilkinson Power Divider", FDTD is a wrong choice for these type of problems.I mean, it's not wrong but it's more complicated than ought to be..
    MoM or FEM Methods are very convenient and easy to configure.



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Ports are not excited simultaneously by definition of s-parameters
    what do you mean about this?

    We have excited both ports port1 and port2, they are combined in port 3, the problem is how to extract scattering parameters?

    Best regards.



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Big Boss thank you for your reply,

    we have already finished our program with the fdtd method, it's part of my project.
    yes power comb/div are passives components, but our results of s21 varies between + 2dB and -3 dB
    s21 can have a positives and negatives values (between +3 dB an -3 dB)?

    Best regards



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Quote Originally Posted by Satellitmph2 View Post
    Big Boss thank you for your reply,

    we have already finished our program with the fdtd method, it's part of my project.
    yes power comb/div are passives components, but our results of s21 varies between + 2dB and -3 dB
    s21 can have a positives and negatives values (between +3 dB an -3 dB)?

    Best regards
    The results are wrong..1/2 Power Divider must have at least -3dB Insertion Loss..



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Thank you BigBoss for your reply
    For the power divider we have less -3dB as you say, but for power combiner (two input port1 and port2 ,one output port3) we have s21 and s31 varies between -3 dB and +2 dB, we have problem with power combiner, when we excite two input ports.

    Best regards



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Depends on the correlation coefficient of your two inputs, you may get S31/S32 higher than 0dB. For example, if the combiner is ideal and you have exactly the same signal x(t) at port 1 and port 2, then port 3 outputs sqrt(2)*x(t). In this case, you will get
    S32=S31=3dB.

    In general, the output power is:
    Pout = (P1 + P2)/2 + r(x1(t),x2(t)) * sqrt(P1*P2), where r(x1(t),x2(t)) is the correlation coefficient.

    If x1(t) = -x2(t), r(x1(t),x2(t)) = -1, Pout=0, S31=S32=0, all the power is lost in the combiner.
    Last edited by cariban; 19th September 2019 at 09:11.



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Quote Originally Posted by Satellitmph2 View Post
    We have excited both ports port1 and port2, they are combined in port 3, the problem is how to extract scattering parameters?
    Your method is wrong. For S-parameters, you need to do individual port excitation. FDTD excitation at two ports simulatenously is wrong if you want S-parameters.


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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Quote Originally Posted by volker@muehlhaus View Post
    Your method is wrong. For S-parameters, you need to do individual port excitation. FDTD excitation at two ports simulatenously is wrong if you want S-parameters.
    Agree with this. The unused port should be terminated.



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    At this case, if I do individual port excitation, we will not have a power combiner, the input port will be divided in two other ports (power divider).

    Thank you very much for your reply.

    Best Regards

    - - - Updated - - -

    At this case, if I do individual port excitation, we will not have a power combiner, the input port will be divided in two other ports (power divider). how to exctract scattering parametters for power combiner for two inputs ports and one output port.

    Thank you very much for your reply.

    Best Regards



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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Quote Originally Posted by Satellitmph2 View Post
    At this case, if I do individual port excitation, we will not have a power combiner, the input port will be divided in two other ports (power divider).
    For full 3-port S-parameters, it is always a "black box" 3-port device, and you always excite one port after another.

    It seems that you are looking at one special excitation only, for the power combiner mode, so that you get 2-port S-parameters only. That is possible, but your passive device must NEVER have >0dB transmission. It seems your source definition is wrong, and your total input power is 2 * 100% which leads to the wrong +3dB transmission.


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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Quote Originally Posted by Satellitmph2 View Post
    At this case, if I do individual port excitation, we will not have a power combiner, the input port will be divided in two other ports (power divider).

    Thank you very much for your reply.

    Best Regards

    - - - Updated - - -

    At this case, if I do individual port excitation, we will not have a power combiner, the input port will be divided in two other ports (power divider). how to exctract scattering parametters for power combiner for two inputs ports and one output port.

    Thank you very much for your reply.

    Best Regards
    The definition of s-parameter is based on excitation at each port. Of course you can excite two ports and the s-parameter based on linear model is still correct, but you have to consider how they are summed together at the output port.


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    Re: microwave power combiner/divider

    Dear Dr. Volker,

    Thank you for your inputs. For simulating such passive transmission line combiners/ splitters at frequencies greater than 100 GHz, which EM software do you recommend? How has your experience been with ADS momentum? I have heard mixed reviews about it.

    Which mesh settings (cells/wavelength) in Momentum would you recommend for such structures? Which other setting should I worry about to get accurate results? How would RF Momentum fare as compared to Microwave Momentum at these frequencies? I know that Microwave Momentum simulator is more accurate but it takes reasonably longer simulation time as compared to former case. Since my passive structure with the ground plane is 200um X 200um with no radiation, can I rely on the results provided by RF Momentum above 100 Ghz?

    Looking forward to your valuable inputs.

    Thanks.



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