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11th July 2019, 19:10 #1
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Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line.
This would have to work in standard berkeley spicebased simulators without special keywords specific to Altium or LTSPICE.
It has to be lossy, with dissipation factor, or with dB/in.
It has to be coupled, aka differential pair, with even and odd mode impedance.
Is there a free spice model file that I can download, or someone can paste in here in a comment?

12th July 2019, 01:31 #2
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line

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12th July 2019, 03:45 #3
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
I'd be happy to find just one tline .model that seemed credible.

12th July 2019, 04:30 #4

12th July 2019, 09:42 #5
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
The question is less clear than it may seem at first sight. You can easily make a LGRC lumped transmission line model, also coupled lines can be modelled by combining multiple transmission line models.
But LGRC model doesn't represent a lossy line with realistic behavior, except for small band, which is a more or less trivial problem. So I would ask first about the purpose of your simulation.

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14th July 2019, 20:38 #6
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
The purpose is high speed channel simulation with QUCS, to generate Sparameters.
The frequency dependent loss and the tline delay are important.

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14th July 2019, 23:00 #7
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
If you want a Sparameter model, why are you asking for a SPICE model? A simple behavioral model with constant delay and sqrt(f) proportional losses will fit a real transmission line much better than most lossy SPICE models.
See previous discussions, e.g https://www.edaboard.com/showthread....forlongCable

15th July 2019, 07:26 #8
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25th July 2019, 20:12 #9
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
I want to generate an sparameter output and display of a complete channel. One of the several elements in the channel is a transmission line with user controlled parameters (length, loss, impedance).
I know ADS is better, but I was trying to make a complete simulation flow using free software.

25th July 2019, 21:52 #10
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
Sure, anyone would prefer not to spend 100k$ or more on that EDA software. The only issue is that there is no simple solution to that. The more complex line models are proprietary, and possibly a technology mix of static EM solvers and circuit models. If you are a true expert in this RF modelling field, you might be able to find your way using free software, but it will take much more time.

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25th July 2019, 23:06 #11
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
Actually I built a model in QUCS. 2 half length transmission lines, and an RF equation device in between with the transmission equations being K*DF*f/f0.
Not sure if it's correct modelling.
I cannot put this into a subcircuit, due to a bug in QUCS causing error. So I have to copy over a block of 3 components and wires representing one transmission line, and feed parameters to all 3. Then I have up to 8 of these blocks in one channel, it is a mess.
For now all I need is a linear loss curve. The exact loss number (at 10GHz) is obtained from the PCB fab (previous test coupon measurements), so I dont have model copper roughness and other things separately.

26th July 2019, 07:45 #12
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
Is the lambda/2 what you have in hardware? It's a magic length because at that exact length, line impedance doesn't matter and there is no impedance transformation by the line, regardsless of Zline. So depending on your actual length in hardware, because this might be a overoptimistic assumption.
What are you trying to model? Coupling between the lines is both inductive and capacitive, so you can't model it with one lumped path between the lines. Can you show a screesnhot of the testbench?
The usual and reliable lumped representation is cascaded RLCG segments of lambda/10 length. For 2 coupled lines, you then have RLCG for each line, and additional set of C and inductive coupling between the lines. Some EM simulation tools generate such output from field simulation data, for use in SPICE simulators.
What do you mean by loss, the dissipation only or the overall signal integrity stuff? I'm asking because reflection and coupling might be bigger issues than losses (dissipation). We have guys here with all the EDA tools and experience to analyze such structures, so maybe you describe your configuration in more detail and someone runs a quick analysis. That would at least give you some reference data for comapring your own results.Last edited by volker@muehlhaus; 26th July 2019 at 07:50.

26th July 2019, 09:53 #13
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
For now all I need is a linear loss curve.
For the line coupling, a multitransmission line model may be useful.

27th July 2019, 02:18 #14
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Re: Looking for SPICE model for coupled lossy transmission line
What I was trying to do is to make a channel model that i can change easily.
Instead of 3 parts per tline each with lots of parameters, I would have one tline with few parameters (length, imp, loss). Just like in ADS.
I am using coupled nonlossy lines with a equation device to add the loss to it.
Half length because i want both ends of the sub component to represent impedance correctly towards other elements in the channel. So i sandwich the equ device between 2 halves of the tline. nothing to do with lambda.
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