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Receiver BER Simulation ??

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nassim1

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Pls, may someone help me about how can we simulated BER in ADS ?
I appreciate your help,
N
 

No ideas, no body work on that field ??
 

I mean in microwave field ........
 

nassim1 said:
I mean in microwave field ........
Click to expand...
Do you have an experience of actual measurement of BER using actual instruments not EDA-Tool-Play ?

Do you understand BER measurement ?
BER is defined in baseband.

If you don't want to use Ptolemy, use transient analysis instead with some Verilog-A code for measuring BER.
 

Really, i do not have any ideas about that..but i know that as you have written it..the BER is measured in baseband.

Is there any cicruit simulation in ADS software ? how can we make the cicruit to simulate the BER ?

Thank you in advance,
N

Added after 17 minutes:




For information,

I have Application Note Number 1471 'Agilent Technologies RF/IF-to-Digital Connected Solutions Bit Error Rateusing the Advanced Design System '
 

nassim1 said:
Is there any cicruit simulation in ADS software ? how can we make the cicruit to simulate the BER ?
Click to expand...
It seems you don't understand basics of simulation at all.
Do you understand two simulation domains in Agilent ADS ?

Consider actual measurement unsing actual instruments not EDA-Tool-Play.

What instruments or systems are required ?
What systems are included in your DUT receiver ?

What type of modulation is used in your system ?

Does your receiver include data decision circuit ?

Simulation conditions are very different with your receiver conditions.

Do you understand "Receiver of Digitally modulatged RF signal" ?
I think you don't understand basic concept at all.

Again see the following surely.
https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1266622237/1#1

Also see https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238242506

nassim1 said:
I have Application Note Number 1471 'Agilent Technologies RF/IF-to-Digital Connected Solutions Bit Error Rateusing the Advanced Design System '
Click to expand...
This uses Ptolemy and Logic Analyzer.
Do you understantand it ?


BTW, there are no response from you about followings.
Have you come to be able to resolve the followings ?
https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273408947
https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273409182
 

Hello,

Thank you for replying me...

As information, i know what i'm doing dear pancho_hideboo and as i have written i'm working on RF receiver cicruit design.i.e,Filters, LNAs and mixers...
I'm not working in Digital domain and since i'm working in RF receiver, i think is better to have an idea BER..
Isn't it ??
 

nassim1 said:
I'm not working in Digital domain and since i'm working in RF receiver
Click to expand...
I don't think you can say you are working in RF receiver.

If you are working in RF field, why can't you understand the following which is a very easy issue ?
https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273408947

nassim1 said:
i think is better to have an idea BER..
Isn't it ??
Click to expand...

Again do you understand "Receiver of Digitally modulatged RF signal" ?

Consider actual measurement unsing actual instruments not EDA-Tool-Play.
Consider what equipment are necessary for setup of BER measurement with your receiver as DUT.

I think C/N, S/N or NFsys are very enough for you.

https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273043957
 

Again thank you,

1. As i mentioned, i'm working in Rf receiver and i know perfectly what i'm doing and ho the different blocks work.
2. In the site of Nec, they provide the model of the transistor which can be used in ADS but unfortunatly that model does not work. Could you check it if you have time ? you will see that i am right that why i asked for another way to use transistor model.
3. Till now you did not show exactly what i'm looking for !! why you try to complicate your explanation ? If you wanna help someone is better to take it easy... means if you have reference for good helping is better than given previous discussion from others personnel..
4. Again i'm asking how can we make the simulation of BER in ADS and aloso for practical setup.
5. i saw in application note Number 1471 of Agilent some explanation on BER which is also interesting as document...

Thank you for helping me...
N

Added after 52 minutes:


Note that,

1. I don't have access to the baseband functionality;
2. I want to verify the RF BER performance of the receiver independent of the baseband section.

???
 

nassim1 said:
4. Again i'm asking how can we make the simulation of BER in ADS and aloso for practical setup.
Click to expand...
Just same as actual measurement.

If your modulation scheme is some standard one, use Digital Mod/Demod Library(Wireless Library) which are not free, then do cosimulation between Ptolemy and Analog/RF Domain.
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?nid=-34336.0.00&cc=US&lc=eng

nassim1 said:
5. i saw in application note Number 1471 of Agilent some explanation on BER which is also interesting as document...
Click to expand...
It is a very easy application note.
Again do you have basic knowledge of Digital modulation RF RX/TX system ?
In this application note, input signal is E4438C AWG-based RF sigital modulation SG and output of DUT is digital signal.
Then output bit streams are captured by Logic Analyzer.

Again what blocks and systems are included in your Receiver ?

Again surely read the following.
pancho_hideboo said:
nassim1 said:
Is there any cicruit simulation in ADS software ? how can we make the cicruit to simulate the BER ?
Click to expand...
It seems you don't understand basics of simulation at all.
Do you understand two simulation domains in Agilent ADS ?

Consider actual measurement unsing actual instruments not EDA-Tool-Play.

What instruments or systems are required ?
What systems are included in your DUT receiver ?

What type of modulation is used in your system ?

Does your receiver include data decision circuit ?

Simulation conditions are very different with your receiver conditions.

Do you understand "Receiver of Digitally modulatged RF signal" ?
I think you don't understand basic concept at all.

Again see the following surely.
http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1266622237/1#1

Also see http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238242506

nassim1 said:
I have Application Note Number 1471 'Agilent Technologies RF/IF-to-Digital Connected Solutions Bit Error Rateusing the Advanced Design System '
Click to expand...
This uses Ptolemy and Logic Analyzer.
Do you understantand it ?
Click to expand...


nassim1 said:
2. In the site of Nec, they provide the model of the transistor which can be used in ADS but unfortunatly that model does not work. Could you check it if you have time ? you will see that i am right that why i asked for another way to use transistor model.
Click to expand...
It can not be.
This is a simple subcircuit model using EEHEMT.

Do you understand how to use netlist in ADS ?

http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273409182/3#3
 

Hello,

1. For the netlist in ADS, yes i konw how we use it but still have pb to verify the obtained model, i.e, when i wanted to check the bias, it does not work...
https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273409182/0#4.

2. What do you man by :
Again do you have basic knowledge of Digital modulation RF RX/TX system ?
Do you mean for example : Frequency Shift Keying (FSK), Quadrature Amplitude Modulation (QAM)...If yes, my answer will be yes.

3. Again what blocks and systems are included in your Receiver ?
In my receiver, there are BPF, LNA, Oscillator, Mixer and LPF

4. Your questions and my answers:

What instruments or systems are required ? I'm asking about this question...

What systems are included in your DUT receiver ? as mentioned above

What type of modulation is used in your system ? QAM, I want to generate BER curve and then compare it the ideal BER curve of for example the standard 16 QAM...!!

Does your receiver include data decision circuit ? I don't understand this question..

Simulation conditions are very different with your receiver conditions!!. How ?

Do you understand "Receiver of Digitally modulatged RF signal" ?
I think you don't understand basic concept at all.

Could you explaine me more ??
 

nassim1 said:
1. For the netlist in ADS, yes i konw how we use it but still have pb to verify the obtained model, i.e, when i wanted to check the bias, it does not work...
Click to expand...
Simply you don't understand usage of netlist in ADS.
See http://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273409182/5#5
What is pb ?
Don't use unfamiliar abbreviation.

nassim1 said:
Does your receiver include data decision circuit ? I don't understand this question..
Click to expand...
If your receiver is for 2-FSK and signal detection scheme is limiter and data slicer, data decision circuit or data slicer is needed.

nassim1 said:
Simulation conditions are very different with your receiver conditions!!. How ?
Click to expand...
If you can understand Digital modulation RF RX/TX system correctly, answer is self-evident.

nassim1 said:
In my receiver, there are BPF, LNA, Oscillator, Mixer and LPF
Click to expand...
So does your receiver include I/Q-demodulator ?
Or does your receiver assume quadrature sampling using single ADC ?

nassim1 said:
QAM, I want to generate BER curve and then compare it the ideal BER curve of for example the standard 16 QAM...!!
Click to expand...
See the following.
http://edocs.soco.agilent.com/display/ads2009/QAM+System+Co-Simulation+Including+LNA+Noise
Here I/Q-demodulator in Ptolemy domain is used.
 

Hello,

1. For the netList in ADS, see
https://www.designers-guide.org/Forum/YaBB.pl?num=1273409182/5#5

2. Pb is familiar abbreviation. it meas Problem

3. For the :So does your receiver include I/Q-demodulator ?
Or does your receiver assume quadrature sampling using single ADC ?

Answer: My receiver include I/Q-demodulator .
Also, what about if the receiver assume quadrature sampling using single ADC ?

Thank you in advance,
 


It is not well explained.......Really, i could not understand
 

Hi pancho_hideboo,

For the BER, do you have a good explanation on it ? I found difficult to understand...
I see that you are familiar with many things.

For the transistor, i used the import Netlist because the manufacturer provides the SPICE parameters and in my mind i thought just with import all things is okay. But as you can see, even i used the import option i realized that either i did a mistakes or the problem is with the file.

It remains, the verifications of s-parameters btween s2p and those obtained by NecActive_library.


Thank you again,
 

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