Question about signal clipping in the following circuit

boylesg · Aug 5, 2012

NOTE:
S2 is closed so the circuit is DC coupled to the signal generator.
XFG1 is turned off
XFG2 is turned on and inputing a sine wave into the circuit.
The sine wave has a +10V offset so you will see in the oscilloscope output that it has a low of 0V and a high of 20V
My added clipping diodes on the circuit output line are disconnected from GND through S3 which is open.

QUESTION:
The output signal of the circuit has an indentical wave length to the input signal as expected.
The output signal of the circuit has smaller amplitude to the input signal as expected.
The output signal of the circuit has a smaller offset to the input signal as expected.
However the peaks of the output signal have been clipped by some other part of the circuit.
Can anyone tell me what part of the circuit that would be?

godfreyl · Aug 5, 2012

The signal at the input to the opamp is limited to about +12.6V by D4.

jasonc2 · Aug 5, 2012

Also even without the diode, you are supplying the TL081 with +12 and -12.

The datasheet states the max input of the TL081 is +/- 15V or the supply range, whatever is less.

You have a 20V peak signal going into a TL081 with a +/- 12V supply. The diode is protecting the op amp from damage and clipping the input but if you intend to drive a 20V signal into a TL081 it will not work.

You will either want to find an op amp rated for your application and a larger power supply, or just use a voltage divider to scale your input down to an acceptable range and compensate with op amp gain (note the output of the TL081 is limited to +/- 13.5V, or less if the supply is less, which it is in your case).

boylesg · Aug 5, 2012

godfreyl said:
The signal at the input to the opamp is limited to about +12.6V by D4.

I tried disconnecting all those diodes and it didn't seem to have much effect.

I might add that the output signal only seems to be clipped if the input signal has a DC offset and if the circuit is DC coupled.

Could it be the OP amp itself?

godfreyl · Aug 5, 2012

boylesg said:
Could it be the OP amp itself?

Yes. See post 3 above.

boylesg · Aug 5, 2012

godfreyl said:
Yes. See post 3 above.

Before I read your post 3, it occured to me to try increasing the 2 DC sources to 18V and then 24V and the clipping disappears.

So it is the opamp by virtue of the fact there is not enougn 'room' between 0V and +12V to accurately reproduce the input signal given that it is 0 - +20V with a +10V offset.

Ah well, it will be another interesting exercise to see if I can find or figure out a way around this.

I have read about amplifiers that convert amplitude differences to pulse width differences. Might be worth finding and re-examining some of those.

jasonc2 · Aug 5, 2012

Here you can see the various sources of clipping: https://tinyurl.com/92lhnlk

The SPDT switch in the center will enable/disable an input divider.

Incidentally, what is your intention for R3 + D2?

- - - Updated - - -

boylesg said:
Before I read your post 3, it occured to me to try increasing the 2 DC sources to 18V and then 24V and the clipping disappears.

You are exceeding the supply and input limits of the TL081. If you do that, for a more reliable simulation, switch to a higher rated op amp, such as the LM318.

So it is the opamp by virtue of the fact there is not enougn 'room' between 0V and +12V to accurately reproduce the input signal given that it is 0 - +20V with a +10V offset.

Basically. Also exceeding the maximum input voltage runs the risk of blowing up your amp and permanently clipping the signal to 0.

Ah well, it will be another interesting exercise to see if I can find or figure out a way around this.

Input voltage divider, as I suggested, will accomplish your task.

I have read about amplifiers that convert amplitude differences to pulse width differences. Might be worth finding and re-examining some of those.

I am not sure what this would accomplish? In any case an op amp alone cannot perform that operation.

FvM · Aug 5, 2012

Here you can see the various sources of clipping: https://tinyurl.com/92lhnlk

You are often linking this simulator in your posts, but clicking on the link does never show the simulation circuit for me you are apparently intending to show, only a standard RLC simulation. I guess there should be way to show the correct circuit for everyone, e.g. posting a file.

jasonc2 · Aug 5, 2012

FvM said:
You are often linking this simulator in your posts, but clicking on the link does never show the simulation circuit for me you are apparently intending to show, only a standard RLC simulation. I guess there should be way to show the correct circuit for everyone, e.g. posting a file.

That's odd, you are the first to experience this. AFAIK based on replies has worked for everybody else. It's not a session or access problem, as the schematic is encoded entirely in the URL and there is no session tracking. The URLs are the way to show the correct circuit for everyone, the RLC sim is the default when the simulator is started from scratch. Perhaps an issue with your browser. Has anybody else experienced this?

Here is the full link to test: https://www.falstad.com/circuit/#$+...+16+0+34+9.353610478917778+9.765625E-55+2+-1

You could also import this text via the file menu, but you should not have to:

Code:

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d 752 256 752 320 1 0.805904783
d 752 192 752 256 1 0.805904783
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d 800 384 800 320 1 0.805904783
d 800 320 800 256 1 0.805904783
d 800 256 800 192 1 0.805904783
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o 19 16 0 290 18.707220957835556 9.765625E-55 1 -1
o 44 16 0 34 9.353610478917778 9.765625E-55 2 -1

boylesg · Aug 5, 2012

jasonc2 said:
Also even without the diode, you are supplying the TL081 with +12 and -12.

The datasheet states the max input of the TL081 is +/- 15V or the supply range, whatever is less.

You have a 20V peak signal going into a TL081 with a +/- 12V supply. The diode is protecting the op amp from damage and clipping the input but if you intend to drive a 20V signal into a TL081 it will not work.

You will either want to find an op amp rated for your application and a larger power supply, or just use a voltage divider to scale your input down to an acceptable range and compensate with op amp gain (note the output of the TL081 is limited to +/- 13.5V, or less if the supply is less, which it is in your case).

Actually those diodes are one aspect of this circuit I still don't quite understand.

I understand how the clipping diodes that I added on the far right of the circuit are meant to work. I.E. forward bias - 3 x 0.7V = 2.1V so when the opamp output voltage exceeds 2.1V the diodes start conducting and 'disposing of' the excess voltage above 2.1V.
I can see that by probing between those diodes and mucking about with the gain pot.

But here are the specs of these diodes:

VRRM repetitive peak reverse voltage - 100 V
VR continuous reverse voltage - 75 V

The diodes before the opamp are reverse biased so how are they meant to get rid of the excess voltage before the signal enters the opamp?
Increasing leakage current through the diodes with increasing input voltage 'disposing' of the excess voltage above 18V max of the opamp?

As I understand it other than zenner diodes conduct in reverse destructively and 20V is well below the max reverse voltage of these diodes anyway.

jasonc2 · Aug 5, 2012

FvM: What browser and OS are you using, and what version of Java do you have installed? If there is a browser-related problem I'll file a bug report with the author.

boylesg: I'll get back to you after breakfast if somebody else doesn't.

FvM · Aug 5, 2012

WinXP Pro with most recent MS IE and Java versions.

Somehow I get the right file by opening "Index of Circuit Examples" and pressing backspace.

boylesg · Aug 5, 2012

jasonc2 said:
Incidentally, what is your intention for R3 + D2?
- - - Updated - - -
switch to a higher rated op amp, such as the LM318.

Well for starters I did not design the whole circuit. I got it from here: http://xoscope.sourceforge.net/hardware/hardware.html
I actually played around with that resistor and diode in multisim and they did not seem to have much effect
on the output even if I set the resistor value to 0R. But I have left them in place regardless.

jasonc2 said:
You are exceeding the supply and input limits of the TL081. If you do that, for a more reliable simulation,
switch to a higher rated op amp, such as the LM318.

Well that's the good thing about multisim huh. You can play around with *** abandon without any real consequences.

jasonc2 said:
Basically. Also exceeding the maximum input voltage runs the risk of blowing up your amp and permanently
clipping the signal to 0.

All I was doing was testing the DC couple switch that I added to the original circuit. I was merely inputing a signal
with a DC component and seeing what happened. I wasn't particularly concerned about exceeding the opamp limits at the
time and it is probably unlikely that I would probing that sort of signal with the real circuit anyway.

jasonc2 said:
Input voltage divider, as I suggested, will accomplish your task.

If I was to probe a real cicruit with a signal that might exceed the opamp limits or be severely clipped by the protection diodes
then I suspect I would be better off constructing an external voltage divider and probing said circuit through
that. From one circuit to another how would you know how far to reduce the opamp input voltage?
Unless I made one of the resistors in your internal voltage divider a pot that I could adjust.
I am playing around with a HV jacobs ladder circuit and constructing this device so I can probe the circuit.
I can get a mosfet based circuit working easily.
But I bought a kit that uses a BC327 linked to an automotive Darlington
that I could not get working probably because I have a stray solder blob or something some where.
I want to use this sound card oscilloscope thing to probe the circuit and see what is going on and fix the
problem. It is a bit difficult to do this with a multimeter when you are only measuring average voltages etc.
Also I want to learn how to use different transistors in place of the ones used in the kit, and change the
resistance values accordingly. Have not had much success with this as yet. Transistors seem a bit less
straight forward to use than mosfets.

FvM · Aug 5, 2012

Well for starters I did not design the whole circuit. I got it from here: http://xoscope.sourceforge.net/hardware/hardware.html

It can be expected to output undistorted 20 Vpp due to the AC coupling. By removing the AC coupling and feeding a 0-20 V input signal, you caused OP clipping (with or without diodes).

I think it's a pretty long discussion about a rather basic OP property: limited input and output voltage range.

boylesg · Aug 5, 2012

FvM said:
It can be expected to output undistorted 20 Vpp due to the AC coupling. By removing the AC coupling and feeding a 0-20 V input signal, you caused OP clipping (with or without diodes).

I think it's a pretty long discussion about a rather basic OP property: limited input and output voltage range.

Well that's one more thing I have learned about opamps that I had not particularly considered until I added DC coupling and DC offset.

I did manage to deduce it when it suddenly occured to me to increase the supply voltage.

At some point I think I might like to have a ***** at puting together a more complicated stand alone PC USB oscilloscope that comes within a bull's roar of the commercial ones. Have been looking at this one: https://www.instructables.com/id/DPScope-Build-Your-Own-USBPC-Based-Oscilloscope/

But this nice simple sound card buffer one is enough for now. Small steps.....

By the way, I added those additional 6 diodes on the opamp output because I have read else where that most sound cards have a 2V limit on their 'line in' socket.

But the original circuit designer states that this circuit has an output of less than 12V. Will probably fry my sound card if I use this circuit without the extra clipping diodes.

What does the diode test on a DMM give you? I assume the voltage drop across the forward biased diode.

If that is the case then I need to add 2 extra diodes to the real circuit because I was only getting avoltage drop of about 1.6V with the diode test across 3 of those 1N914 diodes in series. The extra diode brings it up to just below 2V......perfect.

jasonc2 · Aug 5, 2012

FvM said:
WinXP Pro with most recent MS IE and Java versions. Somehow I get the right file by opening "Index of Circuit Examples" and pressing backspace.

I can confirm this behavior in IE. I will report the issue to Falstad.

boylesg said:
Well that's the good thing about multisim huh. You can play around with *** abandon without any real consequences.

That is almost true except you are running a model outside the parameters it is designed for, and therefore it's behavior is likely unspecified by the designers of that model. It just so happens that your TL081 model behaves sanely in this situation, but that is not a general truth. I also presume this is for the oscilloscope sound card buffer that you are intending to actually build. Just as you use output clamping diodes in your simulation to protect a soundcard that does not exist in multisim, as a general rule of thumb you will want to use simulation models with behaviors well-defined over your entire operating range, otherwise you tread on uncertain territory.

All I was doing was testing the DC couple switch that I added to the original circuit. I was merely inputing a signal
with a DC component and seeing what happened. I wasn't particularly concerned about exceeding the opamp limits at the
time and it is probably unlikely that I would probing that sort of signal with the real circuit anyway.

You should be concerned about exceeding the opamp limits in the real circuit because clipping / distortion / damage are all real effects relevant to your real circuit.

If I was to probe a real cicruit with a signal that might exceed the opamp limits or be severely clipped by the protection diodes
then I suspect I would be better off constructing an external voltage divider and probing said circuit through
that.

A voltage divider for probing would be useful if you suspected the voltage range was outside the range of your probe. The voltages in this circuit however are well within the range of consumer DMMs.

From one circuit to another how would you know how far to reduce the opamp input voltage?

You would have to decide what signal input range you wanted your circuit to work for, then reduce the voltage down to whatever op amp you choose to build the circuit with.

For example, let's say you are designing your circuit to handle a 0-20V input signal (this is a design decision that you make) and you are using a TL081 with a 12V power supply and 12V max input (another set of design decisions that you make).

Based on your decisions you would then determine that you want to reduce the voltage to 12/20 (60%) of its input value, such that 0 maps to 0 and 20 maps to 12, linearly. For this you can use a voltage divider to ground such as: signal -> 80kΩ -> op amp input -> 120kΩ -> ground.

After passing through the divider you would then clamp the voltage to safe limits for your circuitry using e.g. diodes. These diodes are a final line of defense against input voltages that exceed your design limits.

You "know" how far to reduce it by deciding the input range you want to operate on and looking at the input range of the op amp you decide to use.

Unless I made one of the resistors in your internal voltage divider a pot that I could adjust.

That is a perfectly reasonable approach if you decide you want to let the user choose from a range of inputs or make adjustments based on the current situation. Another option is a e.g. a rotary switch with resistors calculated for various preset ranges (e.g. 2V, 5V, 20V, 200V).

FvM said:
I think it's a pretty long discussion about a rather basic OP property: limited input and output voltage range.

I agree with this as well.

The majority of this discussion can be summarized as: Expect distortion and clipping when you exceed an op amps spec limits. All op amps have these types of limits. Refer to the datasheet for details. Design your circuit to operate over the desired input range without exceeding these limits.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, I added those additional 6 diodes on the opamp output because I have read else where that most sound cards have a 2V limit on their 'line in' socket.

But the original circuit designer states that this circuit has an output of less than 12V. Will probably fry my sound card if I use this circuit without the extra clipping diodes.

You already posted this question, and it led to the exhaustive discussion here: https://www.edaboard.com/threads/259543/

See the posts at the end of that thread for answers and discussion on this question.

What does the diode test on a DMM give you? I assume the voltage drop across the forward biased diode.

That is correct.

boylesg · Aug 6, 2012

jasonc2 said:
I can confirm this behavior in IE. I will report the issue to Falstad.

That is almost true except you are running a model outside the parameters it is designed for, and therefore it's behavior is likely unspecified by the designers of that model. It just so happens that your TL081 model behaves sanely in this situation, but that is not a general truth. I also presume this is for the oscilloscope sound card buffer that you are intending to actually build. Just as you use output clamping diodes in your simulation to protect a soundcard that does not exist in multisim, as a general rule of thumb you will want to use simulation models with behaviors well-defined over your entire operating range, otherwise you tread on uncertain territory.

You should be concerned about exceeding the opamp limits in the real circuit because clipping / distortion / damage are all real effects relevant to your real circuit.

A voltage divider for probing would be useful if you suspected the voltage range was outside the range of your probe. The voltages in this circuit however are well within the range of consumer DMMs.

You would have to decide what signal input range you wanted your circuit to work for, then reduce the voltage down to whatever op amp you choose to build the circuit with.

For example, let's say you are designing your circuit to handle a 0-20V input signal (this is a design decision that you make) and you are using a TL081 with a 12V power supply and 12V max input (another set of design decisions that you make).

Based on your decisions you would then determine that you want to reduce the voltage to 12/20 (60%) of its input value, such that 0 maps to 0 and 20 maps to 12, linearly. For this you can use a voltage divider to ground such as: signal -> 80kΩ -> op amp input -> 120kΩ -> ground.

After passing through the divider you would then clamp the voltage to safe limits for your circuitry using e.g. diodes. These diodes are a final line of defense against input voltages that exceed your design limits.

You "know" how far to reduce it by deciding the input range you want to operate on and looking at the input range of the op amp you decide to use.

That is a perfectly reasonable approach if you decide you want to let the user choose from a range of inputs or make adjustments based on the current situation. Another option is a e.g. a rotary switch with resistors calculated for various preset ranges (e.g. 2V, 5V, 20V, 200V).

I agree with this as well.

The majority of this discussion can be summarized as: Expect distortion and clipping when you exceed an op amps spec limits. All op amps have these types of limits. Refer to the datasheet for details. Design your circuit to operate over the desired input range without exceeding these limits.

- - - Updated - - -

You already posted this question, and it led to the exhaustive discussion here: https://www.edaboard.com/threads/259543/

See the posts at the end of that thread for answers and discussion on this question.

That is correct.

Just for interests sake, what opamps do have power inputs in excess of +20V and -20V? All the ones I have come across have power inputs between 12V and 20V.

Wouldn't be the first time that I have got a simulation error that cannot be fixed by the internal analyser. I would assume that is generally the result of exceeding limits of a simulator component.

Clearly the author of the original circuit has already provided protection for the opamp as he states that it is protected by inadvertanly probing 250V mains. Not that I would be remotely likely to have such an 'accident'. So as long as I don't modify the main part of the buffer circuit then I think I am safe from frying the real thing.

But I do like the idea of fiddling around with it a little to make it a little more versatile as far as input voltages go.

If I was to use the internal voltage divider idea then I would estimate that being able to halve, third and quarter the opamp input voltage would be more than adequate. I can't see me having to probe much more than 24VDC at this point.

That is a perfectly reasonable approach if you decide you want to let the user choose from a range of inputs or make adjustments based on the current situation. Another option is a e.g. a rotary switch with resistors calculated for various preset ranges (e.g. 2V, 5V, 20V, 200V).

Yes I like this idea. Some preset ranges like a multimeter would add some certainty rather than blindly rotating a pot knob. I could do this as a front end retrofit.

Is some one able and willing to explain to me how those diodes between the opamp and input stage do the over voltage protecting on the opamp?

jasonc2 · Aug 6, 2012

boylesg said:
Just for interests sake, what opamps do have power inputs in excess of +20V and -20V? All the ones I have come across have power inputs between 12V and 20V.

- https://www.mouser.com/Semiconducto...0w2ygZ1z0wtmxZ1z0w2xnZ1z0w6ohZ1z0j2wj&FS=True
- TI search : https://www.ti.com/paramsearch/docs...og&familyId=1562&uiTemplateId=NODE_STRY_PGE_T
- AD high voltage: https://www.analog.com/en/precision-op-amps/high-supply-voltage-amplifiers/products/index.html
- ON semi: https://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=453
- The list goes on. Mouser and Digikey parameterized search are a great way to find parts, and most big name manufacturers also have parameterized searches of their products.

Wouldn't be the first time that I have got a simulation error that cannot be fixed by the internal analyser. I would assume that is generally the result of exceeding limits of a simulator component.

Generally speaking yes.

Clearly the author of the original circuit has already provided protection for the opamp as he states that it is protected by inadvertanly probing 250V mains. Not that I would be remotely likely to have such an 'accident'.

Given the apparent frequency at which you blow DMM fuses, you may want to reconsider that assessment.

If I was to use the internal voltage divider idea then I would estimate that being able to halve, third and quarter the opamp input voltage would be more than adequate. I can't see me having to probe much more than 24VDC at this point.

Yes; this is an example of good thinking and a design decision. Then your part selection and circuit choices follow.

Is some one able and willing to explain to me how those diodes between the opamp and input stage do the over voltage protecting on the opamp?

When voltage at the anode is more positive than voltage at the cathode (plus the forward voltage), the diode conducts and becomes sort of like a wire with a constant voltage drop, so the voltage is clamped.

A very basic analogy that does not account for many things but might help visualize:

Imagine a container of water with high sides sitting in your kitchen sink. The container is filled with just a few inches of water. The water level inside the container is like the voltage at the anode. The height of the containers walls is like the voltage at the cathode. The walls themselves are the diode.

Now, imagine slowly filling up the container. What happens when the height of the water (anode voltage) exceeds the height of the walls (cathode voltage)? The water overflows over the wall (the diode conducts) and the water level is clamped to the height of the container.

Go ahead, try it here: https://www.falstad.com/circuit/#$+...+320+0+100.0 d+544+400+544+320+1+0.805904783

Use the slider on the right to adjust the voltage. Watch what happens when the voltage goes above or below the rails. When the voltage is above about +5.6V the top diode becomes forward biased and conducts. When the voltage is below about -5.6V the bottom diode becomes forward biased and conducts. When the voltage is between the rails both diodes are reversed biased and do not conduct.

PS if link doesn't work:

Code:

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godfreyl · Aug 6, 2012

jasonc2 said:
Incidentally, what is your intention for R3 + D2?

They lift D3's anode voltage one diode drop above the negative supply rail. D3 then prevents the opamp's non-inverting input going below the negative supply rail voltage.

If you leave out R3 and D2 and connect D3 directly to the negative supply rail, then the opamp's input voltage could be pulled down to about 0.7V below the negative supply rail, which could cause the opamp to behave badly.

boylesg said:
By the way, I added those additional 6 diodes on the opamp output because I have read else where that most sound cards have a 2V limit on their 'line in' socket.

It may be simpler and better to just put a resistive divider at the opamp's output. e.g. 10K and 2K will reduce 12V to 2V.

boylesg · Aug 6, 2012

jasonc2 said:
- [

Given the apparent frequency at which you blow DMM fuses, you may want to reconsider that assessment.

:lol: Touche

I did that within the first few days of getting the DMM.
But having had to open up the f'ing thing to change the fuse about 4 times in quick succession has cured me of being as careless as I had been with my AMM......I think.....I hope.

OK so it looks as though my hunch was correct. Since the 1N914 break down voltage is way in excess of any likely over voltage to the buffer circuit it must be leakage current through the reverse biased diode that 'carries away' any excess voltage on the input. Correct?

And since the resistance to reverse current flow through the diode is considerable to any likely over voltage, the diode acts as a very high value resistor.

But it only works relative to a supply voltage. If a tried the same method on the buffer output I would be no better off than not having the clipping diodes at all and the output is just less than 12V as specified by the original designer.

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