Need help to find EDA with specific requests

First of all, hello all, and sorry for my (very) noobish questions.

I just started PCB design for my hobby project (it has both analog and digital parts in it). I'm trying to do schematic capture and then convert it to PCB. I tried several freeware/trialware EAD programs, but was not completely satisfied with any. So far I settled with Diptrace, but there are many things that I don't like, so may be there is a better option out there that I just don't know about. So here is the list of things that I'm looking for:

1. Program should be able to handle both schematic capture and PCB layout. It should be able to generate PCB layout from schematic. I don't need autoplacement and autotracing - tried many programs, none works even remotely well, so I'll be doing manual placement and routing anyway. So far Diptrace fits nicely here, but there several huge buts (see other items below).

2. Program should either have a huge component library or allow to easy create a new component. So far Diptrace has a lot of components, but (my luck, I guess) almost none of those that I was looking for. My prototype uses these components (if this helps):
-HMC1043
-ADG1607
-AD8429
-AD5542A
-AD8676
-AD8675
-MAX6126
-AD7982
-AD588
-FDD8424H
-74LV04
There are quite a few others, but even these ones would help a lot. Component creation in Diptrace is just horrible.

3. I should be able to specify pattern (DIP, SOIC, TSSOP or whatever) during conversion time, not during schematic time. In Diptrace, there is no way to do so, and this is a big problem - if during PCB design I'll decide that one pattern is better than another for tracing, I can't simply replace component in schematic - it loses all connections, and I have to redo all again. Very annoying and very inconvinuent.

4. I need either huge selection of patterns or easy way to create them. Diptrace basically have none of patterns from Analog Designs (RU-XX), and processes of their creation is not an easy one.

5. It would be nice if EAD have 3D capability, but I don't care much. Also, I don't need SPICE simulation or any verification - just simple plain schematic capture and PCB design/routing.

6. As total noob in PCB process, I don't know how stencil is created - is it something done by the same company that produces PCB from the same file I send them, or I should do it myself. If latter, EAD should also be able to produce stencil file? This is part where I'm competely lost.

7. And, oh, yes, it better be freeware, but I can live with trialware or inexpensive one. Diptrace freeware version allows for up to 300 pins, but my project has about 600 pins, two layes, so I'm looking for a replacement anyway.

Thank you a lot in advance!

Try FreePCB. It's not great, but it's free. Maybe it's improved since I used it years ago. There's also an add-on autorouter for it.

The functionality you say, that you wan't comes for large prices. Good software pieces are Altium DXP, Cadence Allegro, Zuken Cadstar. For some smaller players there's Eagle from Cadsoft but it is seriously few levels behind three mentioned earlier. Legal license for any of those three begins roughly at $1k.

You can get evaluation version of Cadstar and Altium, dunno how about Allegro. Eagle also has free version, which you can use for non-commercial purposes and which has limitation to 10cm x 10 cm PCB area (4"x4").

I actually don;t know of any really free EDA software. There are some like ExpressPCB or Kicad but when you try Altium or Cadstar you will see how crappy Kicad or ExpressPCB is in comparison.

Welcome to the world of PCB design.
Firstly, you need to find a system and stick with it, I have been using the same software for over 25 years (in its various guises) and I am still learning so don't expect overnight success. Whatever system you use will not be perfect, but ALL will produce PCB's so bite the bullet and learn how to use one system.
Libraries, the most (MOST) important part of any ECAD system, and doing libraries is one of the best ways of getting to know both your ECAD system and develop an understanding of component footprints and their relationship to the schematic, real components and all the other processes your design will go through to get manufactured and populated.
IPC-7351 for SMD components and IPC-7251 for PTH are world standards for footprints, I would use them as the basis for you libraries.
**broken link removed**
The CAD Library of the Future - Mentor Graphics

Point 3. No, always specify the footprint as part of the part, and keep record of the FULL part number, including package type. It is the best way of avoiding problems. Changing parts is easier in the more expensive software, such as Cadstar, Orcad, for other packages can't say as I haven't used them.
Point 4. Create them.
Point 5. 3D, IDF & STEP, I'd get to grips with the basics of PCB libraries and design first.
Point 6.
https://www.edaboard.com/threads/233534/
Pont 7. You have quite a few exotic devices that probably wouldn't appear in most supplied ECAD libraries, also the 600 pin limit may be pushing it for most of evaluation versions of major ECAD software (Cadstar Express is limited to 300 pins).
With the low noise and sensitive op-amps, low voltage DAC/ADC I would look seriously at doing a 4 layer board with a contiguous ground, not only for signal integrity and a low impedance return path, but also these sort of designs can be very sensitive to EMC, due to the small value of and conversion steps and the devices sensitivity. A 4 layer design wouldn't be much more expensive and would give numerous benefits.
Some basic links on mixed signal design:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/techt...gnd-plane.html
**broken link removed**
An intuitive, practical approach to mixed-signal grounding
**broken link removed**
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/slyp167/slyp167.pdf
http://www.ieee.org.uk/docs/emc1206a.pdf
**broken link removed**
**broken link removed**
**broken link removed**

Common Mode Ground Currents

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 ----------

And the rest:
Some PCB design guides:
**broken link removed**
http://www.ucamco.com/public/RS-274X_Extended_Gerber_Format_Specification_201012.pdf
**broken link removed**
http://pcbtalk.com/data/upload/Designing_Balanced_PCBs.pdf
**broken link removed**
http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTutorialRevA.pdf
**broken link removed**
http://www.ece.unh.edu/courses/ece7...onent Zero Orientations for CAD Libraries.pdf
http://www.smtnet.com/library/files/upload/The-Universal-PCB-Design-Grid-System.pdf
**broken link removed**
**broken link removed**
http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/tutorials/MT-008.pdf
http://www.thehighspeeddesignbook.com/

A list of EDA software:

Free/Open source
DesignSpark (RS comp) - http://www.designspark.com/
FreePCB - http://www.freepcb.com/
Fritzing - http://fritzing.org/
gEDA - http://www.gpleda.org/index.html
KiCAD - **broken link removed**
Minimal Board Editor - http://www.suigyodo.com/online/e/index.htm (English, Japanese)
Open Circuit Design - http://opencircuitdesign.com/
Protel (Altium) AutoTrax/EasyTrax (DOS Based) - **broken link removed**
TCI - **broken link removed** (French)
ZenitPCB - http://www.zenitpcb.com/Index.html

Limited free version
AutoTRAX - http://www.kov.com/
CADint - http://www.cadint.se/p_free.asp
Cadstar Express (Zuken) - **broken link removed**
DipTrace - http://www.diptrace.com/
Eagle (Farnell/Newark) -
Layo1 PCB - http://www.baas.nl/layo1pcb/uk/downloads.htm
McCAD - http://www.mccad.com/index.html
OrCad 16.3 (Cadence) - **broken link removed**
Osmond PCB - http://www.osmondpcb.com/index.html (Only PCB)
PCB Elegance - http://www.mercoelectronics.nl/
WinQcad - http://www.winqcad.com/

Commersial
Allegro (Cadence) - http://www.cadence.com/products/pcb/Pages/default.aspx
Altium - http://www.altium.com/
Ariadne - **broken link removed** (German)
AutoTRAX - http://www.kov.com/
Bartels AutoEngineer - http://www.bartels.de/bae/bae_en.htm (English, German)
BoardMaker3 - http://www.tsien.info/index.php#
Board Station (Mentor) - http://www.mentor.com/products/pcb-system-design/design-flows/boardstation/
CADint - http://www.cadint.se/products.asp
Cadstar (Zuken) - http://www.zuken.com/products/cadstar
CIRCAD - http://www.holophase.com/index.html
CircuitCREATOR - **broken link removed**
Circuit Wizard, PCB wizard - http://www.new-wave-concepts.com/products.html
CSiEDA - http://www.csitek.co.kr/ (Korean)
CSiEDA - http://www.csieda.co.jp/en/csieda/ (Japanese, English)
CR-5000 (Zuken) - http://www.zuken.com/products/cr-5000
DipTrace - http://www.diptrace.com/
Douglas CAD/CAM - http://www.douglas.com/software/pro/prolayout.html
Dreamcad - **broken link removed** (Japanese)
Eagle (Farnell/Newark) -
Easy-PC - **broken link removed**
EDWinXP - http://www.visionics.a.se/index.html
Expedition Enterprise (Mentor) - http://www.mentor.com/products/pcb-system-design/design-flows/expedition-enterprise/
ICADPCB (Fujitsu) - **broken link removed**
Layo1 PCB - http://www.baas.nl/layo1pcb/uk/index.html
McCAD - http://www.mccad.com/index.html
Orcad (Cadence) - http://www.cadence.com/products/orcad/orcad_capture/pages/default.aspx
Osmond PCB - http://www.osmondpcb.com/index.html (Only PCB)
Pads (Mentor) - http://www.mentor.com/products/pcb-system-design/design-flows/pads/
PCB Elegance - http://www.mercoelectronics.nl/
Proteus PCB Design - **broken link removed**
Pulsonix - http://pulsonix.com/index.asp
Rimu Schematics/PCB - **broken link removed**
Scooter PCB - **broken link removed** (German)
Sprint-Layout - http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/sprint-layout.html
SuperCAD/SuperPCB - **broken link removed**
Target 3001 - http://www.ibfriedrich.com/ (English, German, French)
TINA (DesignSoft) - http://www.tina.com
Ultiboard (National Instruments) - http://www.ni.com/ultiboard/
Vutrax - http://www.vutrax.co.uk/index.htm
WinCircuit - http://alain.michel13.free.fr/Anglais.html
WinQcad - http://www.winqcad.com/
XL designer (Seetrax) - http://www.xldesigner.com/

Free SW for PCB order service (no gerber files export)
ECAD Pro - http://www.pcbdesignandfab.com/ (gerber files $25/board)
Expresspcb - http://www.expresspcb.com/
Pad 2 Pad - http://www.pad2pad.com
PCB123 - http://www.sunstone.com/PCB123-CAD-Software.aspx (gerber files $100/board)
PCB Artist - http://www.4pcb.com/free-pcb-layout-software/
Target 3001 (PCB Pool edition) - http://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/service_downloads.html (gerber with proto)

Gerber tools
GCPrevue (Graphicode) - http://www.graphicode.com/Download_GC-Prevue_and_Free_Trials
GerberLogix - http://www.easylogix.de/products_detail.php?prog_id=1
gerbv - http://gerbv.sourceforge.net/
Viewplot - http://www.viewplot.com/

PCB panelizing
CAM 350 - **broken link removed**
FAB 3000 - http://www.numericalinnovations.com/fab3000.html

Stripboard/Veroboard layout tools
DIY Layout Creator - http://diy-fever.com/software/
LochMaster - http://www.abacom-online.de/uk/html/lochmaster.html
Stripboard Designer - http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/...Misc__Graphics_Tools/StripBoard_Designer.html
Stripboard Magic - **broken link removed**
Stripes - http://sites.google.com/site/libby8dev/stripes
VeeCAD - http://veecad.com/
VeroCAD - http://xtronic.org/download/verocad-3-veroboard/
VeroDes - http://www.heyrick.co.uk/software/verodes/


Simulation - Free
5Spice - http://www.5spice.com/ (not free for commercial use)
Cider - http://embedded.eecs.berkeley.edu/pubs/downloads/cider/index.htm
Circuit Simulator Applet - http://www.falstad.com/circuit/ (iPad/iPhone version available, iCircuit - NOT FREE)
Logisim - **broken link removed**
LTpsiceIV (Linear Technology) - http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/
Mindi (Microchip) - **broken link removed**
Ngspice - http://ngspice.sourceforge.net/screens.html
Qucs - http://qucs.sourceforge.net/
TINA-TI (Texas Instruments) - http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/tina-ti.html
XSPICE - http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~mrichard/Xspice/

Simulation - Commercial
AIM Spice - http://www.aimspice.com/
B2 Spice - http://www.beigebag.com/
Circuit Wizard - http://www.new-wave-concepts.com/products.html
ICAP/4, etc.. - **broken link removed** (Limited Free version available)
Micro Cap - http://www.spectrum-soft.com/index.shtm (Limited Free version available)
NI Multisim (National Instruments) - http://www.ni.com/multisim/
PSpice (Cadence) - http://www.cadence.com/products/orcad/pspice_simulation/pages/default.aspx (Limited Free version available)
Super Spice (Anasoft) - http://www.anasoft.co.uk/ (Limited Free version available)
TopSpice - http://penzar.com/topspice/topspice.htm (Limited Free version available)
WinSpice - http://www.winspice.com/

Hi marce,

thank you for the comprehensive reply - I've checked wiki page for EAD, but your lists include quite more of them, so thanks a lot. As for "exotic components" - I was surprised that you consider them as such. These are either top-of-the-line or very close to that, so I'd expect most libraries to include them. Apparently, most libraries include the other side of the spectrum. Unfortunately,as you said, none of EADs is perfect (moreover, all of those I tried are light years from being perfect). I was even touting an idea of writing my own , but for few hobby projects it doesn't make any sense (sigh).

The logic of EAD developers is very strange. Here how the process goes: you start with general schematic ("some" mux, "some" opamp, "some" ADC/DAC, "some" res/caps, etc). Then you find components that fit your circuit conditions, then you detail the exact values of res/caps, etc. Bottom line - you go from general to the detail. For example, at some point you can realize that if you adjust some params, you can use res net instead of standalone components, which will save you PCB space, provide shorter paths, and other benefits. But EAD developers think that you know ALL the details of your schematic upfront - including package type, while in reality schematic is a living document up to the last minute before conversion to PCB (and very likely, some time after). Oh, well, may be in a future someone will try to create a reasonable product (sigh).

Thank you for your advice about ground, but in my case total analog ground length is less than 30mm (with total board size 2"x2"), so 4 layer is an overkill, although I might try it in version 2 (may be even have Faraday cage aroung analog parts/routs).

I did read thread for stencil/board, but didn't see the answer - who is doing stencil file and final stencil product? Me, or the same company that does PCB, or I should go for yet another company? Sorry for stupid question - just never did that before. I did quite a few breadboard projects, but PCB will be first time (well, at least I know how to solder it in the oven )

More advanced software can generate stencils without problem.

As for design flow advanced tools work that way which you have described, because that's how circuit design works in general. People want to have single too for all phases of design. This way when for example general functional diagram is finished designers don't have to input it once more into EDA software or worry about file format compatibility.

poorchava said:

More advanced software can generate stencils without problem.

Click to expand...

And after it generated, who is creating the actual, physical stencil, the one I'll need when placing solder paste? Same company that does the actual PCB? I just don't know enough about the whole process. I found several companies that will do PCB from the file I send (low quantities, cheap enough), but none of them listed anything like "stencil will be shipped with the PCB". Or is it included by default? Sorry again for the stupid question - I know that for someone who is in PCB world for years this seems like an obvious "everybody knows" thing, but for noob this is question that very hard to find answer to - just because it is considered "obvious".

poorchava said:

As for design flow advanced tools work that way which you have described, because that's how circuit design works in general.

Click to expand...

This is great, but can you tell which one(s) support this flow? Those that I've downloaded and tried do not, so may be I just didn't find the good one.

As for stencils i think both options are possible. For sure there are companies who manufacture stencils on their own. My company amongst other things also assembles pcbs. Manufacturers of PCBs and stencils are completly different companies unrelated to each other. Stencils are quite expensive (unfortunately I cannot tell you how much my company pays for them, because of NDA).

As for EDA software we use Zuken Cadstar. You can get a demo with limit on total number of components and pins/pads. This limit can be worked-around by gouping fe wlements into one component . Sadly - i can't tell you more. This time not the NDA, just lack of knowlegde, because profesionally I'm not a PCB designer nor hardware designer and I simply don't use Cadstar because I don't like it. personally I use Altium DXP for larger projects and Cadsoft Eagle for smaller ones.

First a stencil, you produce a stencil artwork if you use gerbers or ensure you have a stecil layer if you use ODB++, this is simply a 1:1 iamage of ALL the pads where you want solder paste applied and the board fidusials. So ALL PCB software can produce a stencil
The I would reccomend you work with a stencil manufacturer and whoever is doing your assembly to have the correct stencil (Thickness, hole size reduction, segmentatio for QFN thermal pads etc) for the assembly process. Also IPC-7525.
Now a quick note on stencil design, you realy have to understand the process of PCB SMD population, solder paste, etc etc before you start designing your own, use the experts.
http://www.ipc.org/TOC/IPC-7525A.pdf

Welcome to DEK International
Tecan - SMT Stencil Products

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

The logic of EAD developers is very strange. Here how the process goes: you start with general schematic ("some" mux, "some" opamp, "some" ADC/DAC, "some" res/caps, etc). Then you find components that fit your circuit conditions, then you detail the exact values of res/caps, etc. Bottom line - you go from general to the detail. For example, at some point you can realize that if you adjust some params, you can use res net instead of standalone components, which will save you PCB space, provide shorter paths, and other benefits. But EAD developers think that you know ALL the details of your schematic upfront - including package type, while in reality schematic is a living document up to the last minute before conversion to PCB (and very likely, some time after). Oh, well, may be in a future someone will try to create a reasonable product (sigh).

Click to expand...

I disagree with your sentiments, having worked in product development for many years and been involved with DFM and assembly for as many years, you have to choose component footprints at the offset. All schematics allow change during the life of a schematic and ALL integrated schematic capture/PCB software allows relatively easy ECO (Engineering Change Overs). This is paramount to product design and development. What you dont want is wishy washy designs, you have to think about component choice (including footprint) at the offset of a design, new footprints have to be evaluated by you PCB assemblers, devices have to be sourced and with some devices on 16+ week lead times you cant mess about.
Sorry but always work in a regimented, disciplined way, dont cut corners, with parts define and use them as I explained earlier, once you get to grips with a system you will find how to do ECO's without loosing all you connectivity etc (with Cadstar its a doddle). I would also controll all designs on two levels, a design path with versions and a released versions with issues (pretty standard with document control programs), this will allow you to keep a history of a design.
Have Fun
Marc

About stencil - yes, I figured this thing out, and already found companies that produce it relatively cheap. As for EDA - marce, let's agree to disagree about the process. Currently I'm trying Altium, will see if I'd like it. (I tried Eagle and didn't like it at all). To be honest, Diptrace made the best impression to me so far, but only compared to others I tried; per se it is also very, very far from ideal Believe me - I'm in software industry for 20 years, and know how the process goes: programs are written by people who never ever use them themselves, and end users are barely able to articulate what exactly they want, so usability always going downwards. I guess I'd have to bite the bullet and use whatever is available - even bad tool is better than nothing.

Thanks to all who answered!

Some amount of time is necessary to get used with any software. About DipTrace:

2. Anyway you will need to design some parts yourself with any software. See last 3 videos in DipTrace guided tour - it shows how to make parts and manage libraries. Also there is tutorial with more detailed description and more features. I have also made small video here: DipTrace Tutorial - Library Creation and Management - YouTube

3. Right click on Schematic part and choose Attached Pattern - here you can easily change pattern for any existing part without replacing it, then just update PCB from Schematic.

4. See 2.

7. See here: Non-Profit :: DipTrace

Thank you for the info. I finally settled with DesignSpark. It has it's limitations and quirks, but does the job I need for free (although I'd like to see some improvements like automatically keeping minimum distance between tracks while in manual routing mode instead of ERC later).