Euler's Identity
Advanced Member level 4
Granted this isn't quite an elementary electronics question, but in asking it I do feel quite elementary, but...
A PLL consists of
1. Phase detector (PD)
2. Loop filter and a
3. Voltage-controlled oscillator
The PD outputs V/rad, the average DC voltage of the phase difference between two signals.
The loop filter determines the response time (the damping) of the PLL and it establishes the PLL's bandwidth.
The VCO outputs rad/V, the output frequency fed back to the PD. (Even though it's a phase detector, it's actually receiving two frequencies from which the phases are compared.)
These things I know. Likewise, I've now successfully designed and built a well-working PLL, thanks to another thread in this forum (one of the forums) that directed me to a TI app note that gave me two equations and two unknowns for designng the loop flter.
However, thoughout all of this, I still haven't seen the math of it all actually come together.
I am familiar with the Laplace transform and I'm no stranger to Calculus; although, my ODE knowledge is rather rusty now. But figuring out the math of this PLL is naggng on me.
The way I've used the Laplace transform in the past was to solve for Vo(s)/Vin(s)=F(s). Then I've rearranged it and inverted it to get Vo(t). But how do I get anythng out of this PLL? Every book I've read or note I've read, for some reason, does not take the Laplace transform of all the blocks, only the loop filter and the VCO. Yet, the PD's equation looks like
Vc=Kd(Φo-Φi)
right?
Hence, taking Laplace of this we get
L[Vc] = L[Kd(Φo-Φi)]
Vc(s) = Kd(Φo(s)-Φi(s))
right?
That's what ΔΦ means, right?
Also, as another question about this, I keep seeing
Δω = KoVc
for the VCO. Thn the substitution is made that, since ω=dΦ/dt, we can say
dΦ/dt = KoVc,
but it doesn't say ω; rather, it says Δω. How does Δω become ω?? The one is the radian frequency output of the VCO, and the other is the change between the previous radian frequency output and this one. What am I missing? I agree that both Δω and ω have the same units, rads/s, but I'm not seeing them as the same thing such that one can substitute for the other. Can you explain this to me?
As I said in the beginning, true, this isn't elementary electronics, but I do feel pretty elementary for asking it.
One last thing, I'm not getting the ω=dΦ/dt thing either, unless dΦ/dt is actually the constant I'm seeing it as. Yeah, the rotating radius is changing phase as time increases, but it's changing at a constant rate, right? Hence, dΦ/dt is a constant, yes?
Oh well. Hopefully someone out there can clue me in to getting this derivation of the PLL equation that I used to get the time constants for my design so that it worked the first time. As I see it, it's still not my design, when I'm using another's equations, even though the circuit works and even though I did calculate the resistor and capacitor values. I don't know if you can relate, but it's just not my design yet, not until I can derive this loop equation on my own.
Added after 2 hours 50 minutes:
Ah :-(
I was hoping someone out there online could clue me in on this PLL design thing.
What I'm asking about is how do I create the loop equation.
It's block1 times block2 times block3 equals something, and then from that equatoin you can get equations for ωn and ωf, depending on what kind of loop filter is used in block2, where the ratio of ωf/ωn determnes the damping of the system and, therefore, the component values of the filter.
I'm pretty sure I'm trying to see somethng that looks like
Φo(s)/Φi(s) = X(s)
But, from where I come from, a transfer functon had an output, like Vo(s) = X(s)Vin(s)
So, does the PLL equation look like Φo(s)=X(s)Φi(s)?
But I thought the output of a PLL was a frequency, as in the VCO spits out a frequency based on its control voltage, Vc?
I'm just not getting it. :-(
Where is Vo(f) = a square wave at some fundamental frequency?? ....will it spit out the fourier series? Or is it just a generic thing? A frequency and, therefore, an assumed-to-be sine wave?
A PLL can lock onto a harmonic. A harmonic frequency is not the fundamental frequency. Therefore, phase and frequency aren't the same thing. But yet this X(s), however it comes about, only speaks of phase??
Then there's, of course, this Δω=ω???
[chuckle] This the point where people I've spoken with thus far ask, you don't have a television, do you?
I just want to get this, want to see why my "design" worked, mathematically.
With an op amp, I can put in 1v and get out roughly 10v because I designed it to work that way. I can prove it works that way because I can use Vo=A(v+ - v-) and the voltage divder rule as necessary to derive Vo/Vin, but with this PLL, I don't mathematically understand how an output of ωo=ωin. ...even with the math classes I've, quite frankly, aced: Pre-Calc, U. Calc I, U Calc II, ODE, and MVCalc.
Should I have had PDE or something?
Laplace is wonderful, but it's useless if you can't write the loop equation and, therefore, don't understand, at least mathematically, how it relates to the design that works, where that output frequency's value came from. It's hard for me to believe that this simple circut I created* can't possibly run afoul just because it works beautifully right now. It'd be good to know I didn't miss something, for I'm usnig someone else's equations. It's not my design! If it breaks, how will I fix it, aside from fiddling here or there?
* "My design" is four resistors, two capacitors, a five volt supply, and an MC14046. Setting the damping (per Excel's crunching) at approx 0.7 it locked so fast that I thought I had a short from Vin to Vo, until I changed Vin's f and saw Vc change as Vo's f changed. I said "Eureka!" ...but then I said why? If I can answer why, THEN I can answer why not if and when it breaks. It's a quite elementary concept as I see it.
A PLL consists of
1. Phase detector (PD)
2. Loop filter and a
3. Voltage-controlled oscillator
The PD outputs V/rad, the average DC voltage of the phase difference between two signals.
The loop filter determines the response time (the damping) of the PLL and it establishes the PLL's bandwidth.
The VCO outputs rad/V, the output frequency fed back to the PD. (Even though it's a phase detector, it's actually receiving two frequencies from which the phases are compared.)
These things I know. Likewise, I've now successfully designed and built a well-working PLL, thanks to another thread in this forum (one of the forums) that directed me to a TI app note that gave me two equations and two unknowns for designng the loop flter.
However, thoughout all of this, I still haven't seen the math of it all actually come together.
I am familiar with the Laplace transform and I'm no stranger to Calculus; although, my ODE knowledge is rather rusty now. But figuring out the math of this PLL is naggng on me.
The way I've used the Laplace transform in the past was to solve for Vo(s)/Vin(s)=F(s). Then I've rearranged it and inverted it to get Vo(t). But how do I get anythng out of this PLL? Every book I've read or note I've read, for some reason, does not take the Laplace transform of all the blocks, only the loop filter and the VCO. Yet, the PD's equation looks like
Vc=Kd(Φo-Φi)
right?
Hence, taking Laplace of this we get
L[Vc] = L[Kd(Φo-Φi)]
Vc(s) = Kd(Φo(s)-Φi(s))
right?
That's what ΔΦ means, right?
Also, as another question about this, I keep seeing
Δω = KoVc
for the VCO. Thn the substitution is made that, since ω=dΦ/dt, we can say
dΦ/dt = KoVc,
but it doesn't say ω; rather, it says Δω. How does Δω become ω?? The one is the radian frequency output of the VCO, and the other is the change between the previous radian frequency output and this one. What am I missing? I agree that both Δω and ω have the same units, rads/s, but I'm not seeing them as the same thing such that one can substitute for the other. Can you explain this to me?
As I said in the beginning, true, this isn't elementary electronics, but I do feel pretty elementary for asking it.
One last thing, I'm not getting the ω=dΦ/dt thing either, unless dΦ/dt is actually the constant I'm seeing it as. Yeah, the rotating radius is changing phase as time increases, but it's changing at a constant rate, right? Hence, dΦ/dt is a constant, yes?
Oh well. Hopefully someone out there can clue me in to getting this derivation of the PLL equation that I used to get the time constants for my design so that it worked the first time. As I see it, it's still not my design, when I'm using another's equations, even though the circuit works and even though I did calculate the resistor and capacitor values. I don't know if you can relate, but it's just not my design yet, not until I can derive this loop equation on my own.
Added after 2 hours 50 minutes:
Ah :-(
I was hoping someone out there online could clue me in on this PLL design thing.
What I'm asking about is how do I create the loop equation.
It's block1 times block2 times block3 equals something, and then from that equatoin you can get equations for ωn and ωf, depending on what kind of loop filter is used in block2, where the ratio of ωf/ωn determnes the damping of the system and, therefore, the component values of the filter.
I'm pretty sure I'm trying to see somethng that looks like
Φo(s)/Φi(s) = X(s)
But, from where I come from, a transfer functon had an output, like Vo(s) = X(s)Vin(s)
So, does the PLL equation look like Φo(s)=X(s)Φi(s)?
But I thought the output of a PLL was a frequency, as in the VCO spits out a frequency based on its control voltage, Vc?
I'm just not getting it. :-(
Where is Vo(f) = a square wave at some fundamental frequency?? ....will it spit out the fourier series? Or is it just a generic thing? A frequency and, therefore, an assumed-to-be sine wave?
A PLL can lock onto a harmonic. A harmonic frequency is not the fundamental frequency. Therefore, phase and frequency aren't the same thing. But yet this X(s), however it comes about, only speaks of phase??
Then there's, of course, this Δω=ω???
[chuckle] This the point where people I've spoken with thus far ask, you don't have a television, do you?
I just want to get this, want to see why my "design" worked, mathematically.
With an op amp, I can put in 1v and get out roughly 10v because I designed it to work that way. I can prove it works that way because I can use Vo=A(v+ - v-) and the voltage divder rule as necessary to derive Vo/Vin, but with this PLL, I don't mathematically understand how an output of ωo=ωin. ...even with the math classes I've, quite frankly, aced: Pre-Calc, U. Calc I, U Calc II, ODE, and MVCalc.
Should I have had PDE or something?
Laplace is wonderful, but it's useless if you can't write the loop equation and, therefore, don't understand, at least mathematically, how it relates to the design that works, where that output frequency's value came from. It's hard for me to believe that this simple circut I created* can't possibly run afoul just because it works beautifully right now. It'd be good to know I didn't miss something, for I'm usnig someone else's equations. It's not my design! If it breaks, how will I fix it, aside from fiddling here or there?
* "My design" is four resistors, two capacitors, a five volt supply, and an MC14046. Setting the damping (per Excel's crunching) at approx 0.7 it locked so fast that I thought I had a short from Vin to Vo, until I changed Vin's f and saw Vc change as Vo's f changed. I said "Eureka!" ...but then I said why? If I can answer why, THEN I can answer why not if and when it breaks. It's a quite elementary concept as I see it.