2.4GHz or 5.2GHz IFA (Inverted "F" Antenna),who ha

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yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

27 Jul 2003 2:49 *.hfss 2.4ghz

I am doing some simulations with Ansoft HFSS on IFA.

The 2.4GHz dimension fits good both on simulation and measurment with the reference dimension.

I want to simulate the 5.2GHz IFA, but I have no reference to compare.

Does anyone have the design dimesion of IFA?

Can U give it to me to compare with the simulation ?

Thank U verymuch.

tzwei

Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 25

29 Aug 2003 9:26 ifa antenna

Hi yellowtooth:
I am also studying the PCB IFA antenna,But I don't know how can I measure it or evaluate its performance accurately. Can you instruct me some points? thanks!

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

30 Aug 2003 9:10 ideal inverted-f antenna

network analyzer .

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

30 Aug 2003 11:29 2.4ghz equivalent to 633mhz?

Hi Yellowtooth,

did the paper I've posted on Sat Jun 07, 2003 9:32am at elektroda not help with the dimensions? Do you require dual frequecy on a single antenna? If you do, I can attach some info for you otherwise I think the formula works and then you can start playing around with the dimensions in H/F/S/S optometric to get you antenna.

I will be glad to discuss with you further.

Cheers,
Element7k

yellowtooth wrote:

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

30 Aug 2003 11:45 inverted f antenna 2.4 ghz

Hi Tzwei,

humm.. am not sure if I got your query right but.. normal plan will be simulate using Electromagnetic simulator e.g. H/F/S/S, C/S/T M/W/W, F/E/k/O. I/E/3/D then once you get the correct return loss (S11), the required VSWR and good radiation pattern, take down all dimensions and give it to the mechanical engineering guys to build it. Have to be accurate or you get frequency shifts and mismatch. Use the network analyzer and measure S11. It should give you approx <-10 db across your freq band of interest. Then if you have an anechoic chamber measure its radiation performance. Usually, I will expect an omi-direction pattern with some gain. The PIFA in summary is a simple monopole antenna so if you get something close to what a monopole antenna can achieve you are in business.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Element7k

tzwei wrote:

Hi yellowtooth:
I am also studying the PCB IFA antenna,But I don't know how can I measure it or evaluate its performance accurately. Can you instruct me some points? thanks!

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

31 Aug 2003 2:23 pdf of planar inverted f antenna

In deed, I do need the dual frequency anttenna design method.

The ant I am interested in is IFA printed on PCB, but not PIFA over PCB.

Thank U for Ur help.

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

31 Aug 2003 10:31

Hi Yellowtooth,

wonder if my perception of P'I'F'A'/I'F'A is similar to yours. P'I'F'A gnd plane parallel to antenna, I'F'A antenna perpendicular to gnd plane.

If it is, here is a paper with one example of a dual freq wlan antenna. I think there are lots more articles written about it but I have yet to see formulars estimating the size. If anyone has it, pls share. However, I believe the size of the gnd plane matters a lot and for dual/tri/quad freq, maybe a curving F antenna structure helps.

Hope it helps. It will be nice if you can share ur H/F/S/S desgn (is it ver 9?)with us so we can all learn. Smile

Element7k

yellowtooth wrote:

In deed, I do need the dual frequency anttenna design method.
'
The ant I am interested in is I'F'A printed on PCB, but not P'I'F'A over PCB.

Thank U for Ur help.

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Last edited by Element7k on 06 Sep 2003 10:47; edited 1 time in total

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

31 Aug 2003 13:19

I only simulated the single frequncy IFA with good result on 2.45GHz.

I say good mean that it match the measurement.

But on 5.2 GHz, the result does not accord to the one in paper in microwave and optical.

So I can not solve two frequncy ANT yet.

The reference I have R all from IEEE.

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

31 Aug 2003 14:29

I am puzzled now. What result r u referring 2? S11 or radiation pattern? Why do you need to reference to a published IFA at 5.2 GHz? For WLAN application, the more omni-directional, the better it is?! And if you get the required bandwidth and good vswr required by hiper lan, you are in business. Smile

Should be quite easy to obtain single frequency operation at 5.2 GHz.

Element7k

yellowtooth wrote:

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

01 Sep 2003 2:26

S11 !

I want the ant to be both 2.4GHz and 5.2GHz for WLAN and hiper LAN.

So I simulated 2.4GHz and 5.2GHz IFA seperately.

But the 5.2GHz didnot match well while the 2.4GHz matched well, so I think that my model is wrong or the HFSS cannot work at high freqency as 5.2GHz.

IEEE reference (maybe helpful 2 U)

1\Analysis and design of an inverted-F antenna printed on a PCMCIA card for the 2.4 GHz ISM band
Soras, C.; Karaboikis, M.; Tsachtsiris, G.; Makios, V.;
Antennas and Propagation Magazine, IEEE , Volume: 44 Issue: 1 , Feb. 2002
Page(s): 37 -44

2\Analysis of integrated inverted-F antennas for Bluetooth applications
Ali, M.; Hayes, G.J.;
Antennas and Propagation for Wireless Communications, 2000 IEEE-APS Conference on , 2000
Page(s): 21 –24

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

01 Sep 2003 21:17

Hi yellowtooth,

I have tried simulating it and indeed there wasn't a resonance at 5.2Ghz. But knowing this paper came from K/L W/o/n/g, I twitched the parameters of the antenna and got quite close to both the required freq. Try changing the width of the F-structure to 1.5295mm. You might get a narrower bandwidth but if you require more, I think u can change the width of the 50 ohm feedline to match a thicker F-structure. Smile

Thanks for the references. I was wondering if you can attach 2nd paper from the APS conf?

Cheers,
Element7k

yellowtooth wrote:

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

02 Sep 2003 8:24

of course .

4 U.

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yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

02 Sep 2003 8:30

2.4GHz/5.2GHz---1 (Kin-Lu wong)

Do U mean this paper ?

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yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

02 Sep 2003 8:33

Or this one ?

2.4GHz/5.2GHz---2 (Kin-Lu wong)

Google
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Google Adsense

02 Sep 2003 8:33 Ads

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yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

02 Sep 2003 9:05

And 2.4GHz/5.2GHz---3

None of above match the HFSS !

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Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

02 Sep 2003 23:06

Hi yellowtooth,

I changed the dimensions of the strips and simulated on C/S/T and got both freq band but response S11 is not as deep as the one in this paper. I also simulated in H/F/S/S. They show quite similar results to C/S/T. At -10dB return loss, I got slightly >200MHz bandwidth at both freq. If I have time, I will make the antennas according to the new dimensions and will possibly put the results here.

I will also try to simulate the other antennas when I find time Confused

Did you simulate the antenna in the reference submitted by the Greek university? I think that antenna should logically be ok.

Cheers,
Element7k

*yellowtooth wrote:

Or this one ?

2.4GHz/5.2GHz---2 (Kin-Lu wong)

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

03 Sep 2003 6:28

I made a mistake , sorry for that I said bellow!

**********************************
Why deletete my uploaded files ?

Indeed there R IEEE papers on the web, but they need to be paid for !

Last edited by yellowtooth on 03 Sep 2003 6:51; edited 1 time in total

yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

03 Sep 2003 6:48

Element7k,

I simulated all the ant in above papers, and all 2.4GHz ant have good response arond 2.4GHz, while 5.2GHz ant even have no resonant freq.
(S11 or Gamma)

So I think that HFSS cannot simulate more than 5.2GHz !

What do U think of it ?

(For in HFSS, the ant's length cannot be changed by input its length, I use two or more brantch to compose the ant, so that I can move them one overlap another to change the total length of the ant. Dose this matter? )

wolf303

Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 6

04 Sep 2003 4:23 hfss

I am a newer ,can i get the free hfss sotware. I want to simulate the printed ifa too.

wolf303

Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 6

04 Sep 2003 9:33 Element7k

hi Element7k:
I want to use Matlab to simulate the ifa printed on pcb.is it possible?
How can i get the model of the printed ifa.In hfss,can you get the model
from the software. can i get the math formula of the E,H(the variable is the size of the ifa).

wolf303

Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 6

04 Sep 2003 9:36 yellowtooth

can you upload the article"Analysis and design of an inverted-F antenna printed on a PCMCIA card for the 2.4 GHz ISM band ".thanks

kayaoo

Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 31
Helped: 2

04 Sep 2003 10:31

yellowtooth,
I am working with a+g antennas too.
I simulated the dual band F(Wang) and IF(Greece) antennas in hf$$ and got results very close to the two papers.Maybe two sepperated sweep bands or more meshes for high band are better.
In hf$$v9 it is very easy to change the length using parameters,while in V8, macro languages is needed to using parameters.u can find it in file->macro->history menu. Of coure ,ur method works too. Hf$$ runs well in a high frequency.

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

04 Sep 2003 10:40 Re: Element7k

Hi Wolf303,

Please read about the software that you are interested in at www.@nsoft.com or read more about using CAD for electromagnetic modelling. You can draw your model in H/F/S/S. The internet is a good place to start off with. Go to google and search for FEM (Finite Element) -method used by H/F/S/S.

You might have to write a program in matlab to do a simulation (that will take you a very long time - Sometimes it is a PhD topic) Sad

It is not as simple as a matter of just getting the antenna dimensions. Like I said, I do not know of any transmission line equivalent model of the ifa being formulated yet. You were not clear about your definition of E,H (do you mean E-field/H-field?) Anyway, you pay >10000 euros for a single licensed H/F/S/S so you can imagine how much work you have to put in to write a code for which I image will be quite similar. Evil or Very Mad

If you have just wire/metal, maybe it will be much easier but I will stick with commercial software rather than formulate my own code at the moment Shocked

However, if you still want to go ahead with M/a/t/l/a/b, @ntenna & EM modelling with M(at)thl(at)b is a good book.

Hope this helps.

Element7k

wolf303 wrote:

eirp

Joined: 11 Dec 2001
Posts: 639
Helped: 9
Location: Phase center

04 Sep 2003 10:40

kayaoo wrote:

Kayaoo,

please can you upload some of your projects in hf$$ 9? We need more examples on antennas Smile

Thanks in advance,
Eirp

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

04 Sep 2003 10:58

Hi kayaoo,

did you simulate Printed inverted-F antennas (Wong)? If yes, did it have a resonance in 5.2GHz band?

For 2 frequency bands, I have used 10 adaptive passes and set convergence to 0.0001 to get result close to C/S/T. Then I look inside the mesh and found that the antenna structure wasn't very well meshed. I was wondering how can I improve the mesh in the metal (e.g. The F-structure) in H/F/S/S 9.0? Used to be able to do it but now seem a little difficult in new version. Hope you can help.

Cheers,
Element7k

kayaoo wrote:

wolf303

Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Posts: 6

05 Sep 2003 2:20 Element7k

hi Element7k
thank you for your reply,i know a lot from you.
i think i will not go on if no simulating model. Crying or Very sad

But i can not get the commerical HFSS.I can only download the free hfss sv.It can not simulate the anttena,i think. I have read an article about pifa model,can you spare some time to read it,give some suggestion,ok?

I am from china,so my english is poor.hope you will not joke me!

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yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

05 Sep 2003 9:57

wolf303

4 U.

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yellowtooth

Joined: 23 Aug 2001
Posts: 187
Helped: 1

05 Sep 2003 10:05

kayaoo

Thank U 4 Ur imformation.

Maybe it is the key problem that I donot know how 2 set the prameter correctly.

And indeed I used one freq band from 2GHz though 6GHz .

By the way , I have not seen HF$$9.0 yet, do U mean Ans0ft designer 9.0 ?

Element7k

Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 390
Helped: 8

06 Sep 2003 12:13

Hi all,

here is the return loss simulation plots of the Printed IFA (Wong) in C/S/T & H/F/S/S.

I am not sure if H/F/S/S simulations are accurate over broadband but the comparison seems quite ok to me.

Antenna parameters in SAT format. If anyone can optimise the antenna, pls share new parameters.

Many thanks.

Cheers,
Element7k

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eirp

Joined: 11 Dec 2001
Posts: 639
Helped: 9
Location: Phase center

06 Sep 2003 14:11

Element7k wrote:

Dear Element7k,

please can you post your hf$$ project also?
You know I'm still curious about pml settings there.
Thanks in advance, buddy!!

Best,

Eirp