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LvW
Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 449
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Location: Germany
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 10 May 2008 15:07 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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First of all, I apologize for the challenging name of the topic. But I feel it is really necessary to start a discussion on the “pros and cons” of the www resp. a forum like this – as far as students and other beginners are concerned !!
Some additional words regarding my personal background: As an electronic engineer I was engaged in the industry for more than 10 years and as a lecturer (analog signal processing) for another 25 years. And – according to my experience – today we face the following problem:
More and more our students are not willing (or even not able) to think and work autonomously by using their own brain supported by relevant textbooks. That means they even do not try to really understand the technical problem and - as a result - they are not able to solve it step by step. Instead, they try to find some “mosaic pieces” by contacting peoples via internet. If possible, they even hope that somebody else makes the job.
I have registered to this forum just one week ago – and I have seen several inquiries which gave reason to write this contribution. Let me give some actual examples (from the analog design division):
1.) I need help to design elliptic filter !!! I would like to build a bandpass elliptic filter for audio signal. What does a basic circuit look like ? And what are the equations to set the center frequency and to chose the capacitor value ?
2.) I am trying to design an op-amp that is going to be used in an integrator circuit.
3.)What is the Input Admittance (yis) ?? Reverse Transfer Admittance (yrs) ?? Forward Transadmittance (yfs) ?? Output Admittance (yos) ??
4.) Which circuit can be used to implement the basic ADDITION/SUBTRACTION function (Vout=V1+V2) of two voltages?
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For my opinion, the answers to all of these questions could be found in one or two of the many textbooks available for electronic fundamentals. And by using such a books each student/newcomer would gain incidentally a lot: ways of systematic search, alternative solutions, derivation of formulas, neglected influence parameters, application hints, logical development of circuits and systems,……., (exactly that, what a good engineer should know in order to be creative !).
But, of course, it is much easier to “let think” and to put the problem into a forum.
Hopefully, I have expressed myself correctly and clear:
Nothing against this forum – I appreciate the opportunity to discuss real problems and interesting questions. But each thing has two sides….
Am I too pessimistic regarding the coming engineering generation ? Or even oldfashioned ? Your comments are appreciated.
LvW
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R00KIE
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
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| 10 May 2008 17:16 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Hello.
I have graduated recently and in a way I agree with you, students should and must learn how to think for themselfs.
On the other hand when students are told they have some work to do they have no clue of where to start and probably they can't get all the help and guidance they need (some just don't care too anyway). I'm lucky because I had the privilege of having good teachers and friends that guided me in the right direction, they told me how to do things (and the reason why) when i was stuck and pointed me in the right direction when I was trying to find my way alone.
Not all students care to do this and sometimes we don't have the time to do it, sometimes I wish I could have more time to perfect what I was doing and study new circuits and way to do the same things but usually we have more than one assignment and not much time to do each assignment.
Asking for help isn't bad, this forum isn't dangerous, if you have students that really want to know things after they get the job done and the assignment delivered they will look into it more carefully, and more, next time they need to do something similar they will remember, "oh, I've done this before, that circuit does it", if it doesn't work we need to find out why, you have more experience than I do and you know very well that the difference between textbooks and the reality can be significant and by asking for help in forums like this people can be advised that those problem exist and how to go around them, most students aren´t doing research, we are using standard circuits and formulas, eventually students don´t need to ask for help unless they have a really hard problem to solve.
Either way good future engineers will try to understand and solve the problems themselfs and bad ones will just copy solutions, its natural selection.
Just my five cents of opinion anyway.
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sadid
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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| 10 May 2008 17:26 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Thank you for this post at first but maybe I'm not agree with you completely not as a lecturer but as a student in another side.
hopefully such posts (that you mentioned here as an example) are ignored simply by members and if the questioner get some replies usually they lead the questioner to one of those textbooks or quick online tutorial
usually (means 95%) nobody solve or paint and design the circuit for questioner like a solution book.
so I'm not worry about this kind of posts and this part of prof. forum's roles.
I'm strongly believe that prof. Forums an Online and Digital information are an great opportunity in compare with old fashioned college ages this new technologies help both students and professors to use their time more efficiently and learning process take less time and student's less dependent to their professors because such forums can do the job for them as an another professor! not solution manual.
simply this forum work as an beginner,classmate,professor,... that join in one place to talk about their problem and believes no one solve others H.W.
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Mr.Cool
Joined: 20 Jun 2001
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| 10 May 2008 17:26 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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hi LvW,
interesting topic. i think you are bang on with your theory. but i do not think it is a problem as you do. let me explain.
there is so much information available, including message boards with real people, it is unprecedented. the web is probably the most powerful tool (when used correctly) far exceeding taught eduaction by experts at university and the invention of the text book a couple hundred years ago.
better than university due to availability of material. you can learn a masters of engineering course on switch mode power supplies by reading two or three really good ph.d thesis on the subject, and this only takes about a week. then you go into the lab, or your basement shop with an oscilliscope and parts from digikey, and actually build and practise your knowledge. when you need specific help, you post on message boards like this one. share your knowledge when you're done. you would obtain the same education in 1 month, where at school it would take you 4 months for equivalent. so this pace is 4:1 if you have ability to teach yourself.
the web is better than textbook because it is keyword searchable. i have a directory on my computer with lots of digital information, books, thesis etc. all in PDF format. i can search the entire folder for any phrase i want, can find specific textbook quality information in a fraction of a time as compared to leafing through the text books on my shelf in the library.
but this is your concern.. do students today have ability to teach themselves? always looking for the quick answer, no real learning.
i have no problem with supplying quick answers to people. i do not think this is a problem. if students do not learn anything they will get weeded out. in north america you can not fail at school, it is just not allowed. so students that do not learn will STILL GET THEIR DEGREE which .. sounds bad .. but is not a problem. they get weeded out in the industry instead. these "engineers" become sales people or rank'n file paid signatures. no problem here either as there is a need for technical background people that don't actually need to use engineering skills. there's a place for everyone. most big engineering companies only have 1 in 10 of their engineers actually competent, the rest are fillers doing the grunt work.
so who does quick information really hurt? with no real learning ?
nobody yet..
now, here is another view. there is a TONNE of information to learn if you actually want to learn engineering. really solve problems grass roots, from abstract thought. apply solutions to issue where there was no solution until you showed up. the buck stops here, when there is a technical challenge "the engineer" has to solve it because there is nobody else in the company to do so. for this level of knowledge it is now a days difficult to achieve because there is so much one must learn! nearly impossible. it would take you about 5 years just to learn the basics. another 5 years to become an expert in the field. that's 10 years, and just to be good at one subject.
how to be great, or a specialist? or how to learn multiple subjects well (which is the trend in engineering now a days). this is tough.. would take another 10 years! so the entry level engineer that wants to learn deeply to play in todays market is looking at 20 years of intense education & practise. it is not like the old days, when engineering was new and the most trivial design (by today's standards) was a work of art. learn the basics step by step = 20 years before you are a world class expert.
this is the state of linear knowledge.
so.. the entry level engineer needs to fast tract their knowledge. the basics.. just learn them sparingly. get quick answers. this doesn't mean that you don't learn the basics, or can not solve problems. this just means you take only what you need. then move on.
this is possible with the use of the internet. communicatino and sharing of ideas and information. changing of the standard education model. just like the internet is forcing teh change of so many busines models (music industry comes to mind). the "people" are out pacing industry and institutionalized education. "we" have the ability to move at a much faster pace - and we are taking FULL ADVANTAGE of it.
knowledge learned at an exponential rate
what this means is quick answers to quick questions. it doesn't necessarily mean the student is not learning. it just means they are not spending a week on a subject when you can get an answer within the minute.
for those students that are not able to retain the knowledge from their quick Q&A session - they will just get weeded out in time. only room for one at the top anyway.
do you want to compete, or do you want to get outsourced? the world is changing faster and you must decide if you want to ride the wave or drown.
Mr.Cool
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poweric
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
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| 10 May 2008 17:49 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I am a student from the unisiverty of the CHINA .
sometimes i meet some trouble and search the information by Google, but get much information and topic about my troubles. maybe everyone of them is useful for my questions ,but i have no much time to read all. so i ofter ask many question in the FORUM then search it by Google for further answers this can be save me much time. in order to do some more effecient jobs
i am sorry for my poor English writing. this is the reason for I cant read much information in a short time
so i think the pros and cons depend on your own thinking and doing
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Audioguru
Joined: 19 Jan 2008
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| 10 May 2008 20:36 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I tell the school kids that I do not do their homework for them. I tell them to ask their teacher to help them. Occasionally I help them.
Billions of them come from a single country on the other side of the world. They say, GIMMEE, GIMMEE PLZ. They also say SIR many times.
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House_Cat
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
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| 10 May 2008 20:51 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I have about 50 years experience in electronics assembly, repair, design, and teaching. I have a graduate degree in computers and electronics. Finally, I've been a participating member of this forum for several years.
When you have been with the forum for a while, you will see the more experienced members tell the people posting the sort of questions you mention to "look it up". You may see them reference a particular book, web site, or paper. It's not that difficult to spot the student trying to shortcut their homework assignment. Many answers to such questions are obviously from inexperienced peers, as you might see on campus between fellow students. Some responses are to correct intolerable misinformation (in some instances passed on to students by professors/teachers/instructors). In my view, all responses are important to the learning process, and none are detrimental.
Knowledge comes in all forms, and its only danger is the elimination of ignorance - regardless of the source. This forum brings together people of common interest from all parts of the world, all walks of life, and all age groups. Race, gender, and politics are not an issue - only electronics. How could that be harmful to the learning process?
Put your concerns aside, review the posts as often as you can, join in and add your knowledge to the mix. Welcome to the forum - enjoy.
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rfsystem
Joined: 25 Feb 2002
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| 11 May 2008 0:11 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Everyone have to go his own way
Legs could not be shared
We could share our stories while on the trail
But be aware all of of us are humans ... in all sense
Think off: A textbook today comes at the prize of a used PC
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artem
Joined: 22 May 2003
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| 11 May 2008 0:50 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| LvW, agree that there is such tendency, but forum is not right thing to blame - 21 century is consumer's century. It is more important now to earn money than to get knowledge when doing this.
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flatulent
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| 11 May 2008 1:02 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I am a former Prof. I think that students should look through books for their knowledge. Especially in classes which have an assigned set of books. In the process of finding what you want you will learn many more things.
Secondly, I think that computer programs that pop out the answers are bad for students. They prevent thinking for yourself. Once students know the basic knowledge, they can on their jobs use computer programs for productivity.
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Sinisa
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
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| 11 May 2008 4:34 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Internet is here, like it or not. This site is popular because it does something that is usefull, otherwise it wouldn't last this long.
Students that are not interested in trully learning materials at their school will always find another way to cheat. Every student should be smart enough that internet is not a replacement to systematic learning offered in books and schools. I have seen a lot of "read this book" kind of answers or "find this book here" that is true help to a student. Students that are obvious in seeking chewed up solution are very often ignored.
I believe that at this site, although it has its own share of students seeking shortcuts, majority of users are seeking help on real problems or just plainly seeking to learn something new. There are so few places were you can "pick a brain" of some trully smart people.
On more practical note, forum rules can include to discourage obvious student asking for cheat answers and can be reported to moderatos by using existing "report this message".
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renwl
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
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| 11 May 2008 7:04 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I support LvW。
we can use internet but we cann't abuse it.
independent think is very important in any time.
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Borber
Joined: 01 Jan 1970
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| 11 May 2008 10:14 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| Yes this forum can be dangerous but only in a way like a sharp knife is dangerous to a child. As said before we are trying to keep it away from them.
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LvW
Joined: 07 May 2008
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| 11 May 2008 11:55 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I must confess I have chosen the challenging wording “dangerous” intentionally - with the aim to stimulate a discussion like this. Therefore, many thanks to all contributers up to now.
For my opinion, it is really necessary from time to time to critically reflect and discuss the influence of new information sources upon people – in this specific case: upon the methods used by some students to solve problems.
Most probably, it is not appropriate in this context to compare a student in Asia or South America with a student in Europe. Because of several reasons which cannot all mentioned here. Nevertheless, some “help me” calls in the forum (please note: some !) gave occasion to write the contribution under discussion.
Quotation: I have no problem with supplying quick answers to people. i do not think this is a problem. if students do not learn anything they will get weeded out. in north america you can not fail at school, it is just not allowed. so students that do not learn will STILL GET THEIR DEGREE which .. sounds bad .. but is not a problem. they get weeded out in the industry instead.
For my opinion this sounds a bit too sarcastic. Shouldn’t we instead at least try to show young people on time how to learn and understand ? By experience I know this is a hard job !
Quotation: what this means is quick answers to quick questions. it doesn't necessarily mean the student is not learning. it just means they are not spending a week on a subject when you can get an answer within the minute.
That’s exactly what I criticize: quick answers to quick questions. According to my experience, it is by far better for any student to find an answer by thinking and doing experiments instead of getting “a quick answer”. There will be no lost time, because that is the only way to learn how to formulate, to describe and to solve the problem, and than to verify and to explain the solution ! And that’s a real engineering task.
To summarize: Again, I like and appreciate a forum like this; that’s the reason I participate.
However, my only concern is that more and more students tend to collect enormous quantities of information – supported by the internet – without having the time and the motivation (and the capability ?) to apply it.
Of course, in this context I do not blame this forum. I only have used it to originate a discussion on this topic.
LvW
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A.Anand Srinivasan
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
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| 12 May 2008 3:57 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| i agree with house_cat... i dont see the high ranked members even bother to answer these homework problems.... even if there is a answer they easily tend to start an debate and often there is a fight over more than two answers....
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abc123
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| 12 May 2008 4:34 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| I remember the same type of question when the "new" electronics calculator came out on the market. Should students allowed to buy the calculators? Is the calculator dangerous in the math. class. We all know the answer now (after 35 years.) It will not. To think is not the same as to get the info quickly. but if you can not get the info. you are going around the circle most of the time. The biggest challenge is on the teacher, they have to change in order to adapt to the internet world with quick info. the MIT open class is a good example of change.
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LvW
Joined: 07 May 2008
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| 12 May 2008 10:09 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Sorry, I don´t agree .
For my opinion, there is a big difference between getting a single solution by using a calculator and - on the other side - asking somebody else to solve a more or less engineering problem. In most - if not in all - cases the synthesis of analog circuits requires to analyze and compare several solution alternatives and to select one which best fits technical/operational/economical conditions. That´s a real engineering job !!
Thus, a simple and quick answer cannot be appropriate, instead it may lead to the wrong way of thinking.
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jecyhale
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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| 12 May 2008 10:18 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| LvW wrote: |
Sorry, I don´t agree .
For my opinion, there is a big difference between getting a single solution by using a calculator and - on the other side - asking somebody else to solve a more or less engineering problem. In most - if not in all - cases the synthesis of analog circuits requires to analyze and compare several solution alternatives and to select one which best fits technical/operational/economical conditions. That´s a real engineering job !!
Thus, a simple and quick answer cannot be appropriate, instead it may lead to the wrong way of thinking. |
You are right, some time you will be leed to a wrong way of thinking, but after you heard many different answers, you will find there are so many methods to solve your problem. It will improve you efficiency and help you think more.
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LvW
Joined: 07 May 2008
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| 12 May 2008 10:41 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Do you really think, this way (combining resp. evaluating several different - hopefully correct - answers) is more efficient than starting a systematic design sequence by reading a corresponding chapter in a good textbook ? I doubt.
LvW
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A.Anand Srinivasan
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
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| 12 May 2008 11:43 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| well if the teacher has taught the student enough to think on his own then why is he gonna come to forum and post his homework??
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jecyhale
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
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| 12 May 2008 11:44 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| LvW wrote: |
Do you really think, this way (combining resp. evaluating several different - hopefully correct - answers) is more efficient than starting a systematic design sequence by reading a corresponding chapter in a good textbook ? I doubt.
LvW |
Yes, I think so, But this is based on your confidence and your understand.
And you can take it as some suggestions and select some useful information.
So don't think it is all right, and believe yourself firstly.
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FvM
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| 12 May 2008 16:20 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I feel that there isn't much left to say after House Cat's wise words. When I was a student, some fellows used to crib the exercises solutions instead of doing the work on their own. Hopefully, they understood in time how foolish they acted.
Also a final years project not based on own scientific work wont look good after some specific questions in a job interview. I have been sometimes performing the technical part of interviews and for beginners I ususally started with a brief explanation of the project work. And than wanted to hear about the technical background or a circuit detail involved.
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Mr.Cool
Joined: 20 Jun 2001
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| 13 May 2008 2:38 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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hmm.. point well taken.
on the other hand.. and i can talk from experience..
if you do not understand what you are doing then you are apt to be lied to and not even know it. PSpice case & point. do you trust the simulation? or should you have a reasonable expectation of how the circuit works before you simulate it?
but how can you have this expectation unless you know ahead of time what the circuit will do?
so there is definite value in learning something before you try to apply it.
but still.. i can not help but feel that there is no harm in quick answers. my reasoning is poor. ha.
there has got to be some way to exponentially learn, otherwords today's young student has NOT A CHANCE to learn enough to be free thinker in new science. just learning vector calculus & euclidian geometry is a 3 year task. how is the student expected to go on to more advanced 3D field theory, or quantum mechanics? that is another year or two.
by the time you're done 5 years intense study, you are us barely scratching the surface of engineering knowledge.
20 years ago, calculas, algebra, physics, field theory and applied circuit was meaning you would be a respected guru in no time. but today's standard, everyone learns this.
how to get ahead of the crowd?
i dunno.. excellerated learning i thought, with part of that approach being quick answers to quick questions.
maybe its not possible. for me, i take my time to learn a subject thoroughly. from first principles. before i feel competent. unfortunately this method takes forever 
Mr.Cool
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jetset
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| 30 May 2008 17:57 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Maybe it's because the rush of today's economy, advance of technology, everybody wants to be out in the market as quick as posible.
Despite I'm young, I think like you do, I have TONS of books, and when I have to solve a problem I study it very well from books, and at the end I am able to give a good solution.
Some people don't like that, my current boss told me that he doesn't like that and if we do everything from 0 we will lose a lot of bucks... maybe he is right, or maybe I'm lucky I'm not fired, maybe I develop fast... I don't know, but I like to work in this way...
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XNOX_Rambo
Joined: 13 Jul 2002
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| 30 May 2008 23:14 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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In recent years there has been an influx of posters that are either lazy or don't have even a basic understanding of electrical engineering.
It appears as if they think that this forum is some kind of chat room and post questions on the level of: "My TV has stopped working! Why?"
When I first found Elektroda I got the feeling that many posters were from the former Eastern block, as they seemed well educated,
competent and talented. In those days there was always something interesting posted everyday.
The proliferation of the Internet seems to have changed that and I tend to agree with Audioguru's comment.
I have observed the same phenomena in other forums as well.
The danger is that the competent members get fed up with "Dumb and Dumber" and just leave the forum.
The question is what to do about it?
Going underground with a secluded forum only for the skilled might be tempting but I don't like that.
Maybe if the members are quicker to report threads of obvious no value, the moderators could delete them before they get out of hand.
My tuppence worth...
/Ram
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belgium
Joined: 30 May 2008
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| 31 May 2008 0:01 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I have a graduate degree in electronics.
I am a new member in this forum.
The biggest challenge for me is also the language.
Next to the mathematics is electronics the same in any language.
Poweric says” am a student from the university of the CHINA”
I can not imaging how difficult it should be to communicate on a Chinese forum.
That is why these forums are important.
We all have to study in books and we al use calculators and computers to move faster forward.
Forums like these help us save time ant give us a conmen language, electronics.
It is incorrect that people are taking it easier.
One top Lvw says “I have registered to this forum just one week ago”
One week is not a long term for analysing a communication point like this forum .
Some people use more languages and are working harder and sometimes help solving electronic problems of someone else is a good thing, we al gain by that.
You are correct when you say “Am I too pessimistic regarding the coming engineering generation”.
I am 39 and like many people I am still learning next to books on forums like these.
I think eventually students are getting the basics on electronics, those ho will need it.
Electronics chances over time so you have to keep up and you have to keep asking.
Belgium
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dac5bits
Joined: 17 May 2008
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| 03 Jun 2008 14:55 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| Simply searching for answers is a waste of time, finding answers quickly is part of being a good engineer and the best way is if somebody can either tell you or tell you where to look, the rest of the time should be used applying or understanding those answers.
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sparso
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
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| 15 Jun 2008 17:55 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I think the forum is helpful that it gives us access
to some real world experience and some wide
variety of answers. It has helped me.
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my_books
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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| 15 Jun 2008 18:36 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| Teachers in India r not knowledgeable and also don't know how to teach. In India over 80% of students get dumb teachers and poor lab facility. Hence such forums r the only way to understand the subject. Also books provided from colleges do not explain the subject clearly.
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RF-OM
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| 15 Jun 2008 21:20 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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To LvW,
I think you are quite right. Many students want to have their home work done by any possible way but not by themselves. First I met this problem in 60-ties when I was taught some electrical courses in technical college. It was time when we use slide rules or wooden calculators as we call them later. Calculation with this tool was slow and not as accurate as it was often need, especially for filters. There was no Internet and finding good textbook was a problem. And my students were working during the day and then study engineering at night. It was somewhat forgivable in such situation when they try to copy home works or pay somebody to do it. I know a lot of engineers who did it, but vast majority of them become good professionals. Life pushed them to learn again all stuff missed in college. I think that unscrupulous way to get knowledge is not a good way, but it is not deadly case. It is just wrong method. Student will finally spend more time and efforts to acquire the knowledge, but after all he or she will get it. When they ask about help today it is understandable and we need to help them. What is not good it is when somebody asks to do the whole work. Students must do it by themselves and only partial help is okay. And what is unacceptable it is when somebody who is not a student but working engineer asks to do the whole work for him. Here are some moral and legal issues in such a case, especially when usage of employer recourses is required. We may see such requests on this site.
Best regards,
RF-OM
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