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troybtj
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 7
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 16 Jun 2008 7:34 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Went thru college for electrical engineering/comp sci double major. That was 20 years ago.
I made some "awesome" projects both in programming and in microprocessor design. However, today, those "awesome" and clever tricks are passe and taken for granted as common knowledge. To keep up with current technology and possibilities, the internet as a whole, and forums in particular, are the best way to fill the "technology gap". Current hardware/standards/methods today are radically different from even 10 years ago! NOTHING in college would have prepared me for the designs, other than having the 'big picture' of what is kinda right and what shouldn't work (although the 'what shouldn't work has been overturned in many cases!)
Books in college are extremely expensive and usually outdated by 1 or more YEARS. To have any concept of the work you will be doing post-education, one MUST continually "surf" and see what's new, and the different ways it is applied.
As far as your original question, I think it is irrelevant, since programs like pspice and electronics workbench, and other circuit emulates give a point n click realtime answer. In College, I'd wait 2 hrs for a pspice analysis to run on a simple linear circuit, today, it is realtime and graphical.
I'd suggest ramping up the learning curve instead of worrying that the "simple problems" have easy solutions posted all over the net. That would prepare a student for real life MUCH more than having them do all the diffeq/FFT pencilwork that is basically taken for granted these days.
The workplace is MUCH more aggressive in getting solutions, FAST. Courses should trend that way, but not by copying another's work. Perhaps by seeing an example of a similar circuit, then the student goes forward from there on his own. That's how real life is. If the students can't exceed, even with all the resources on the net, they can change to an art major (or worse, pre-law!)
Everybody should understand the "Big Picture", basically quantum mechanics/electronic theory of inductance/capacitance/semiconductors learned. Then they can see a big mistake before using a cheap transistor to pulse a 1H coil with no protection. The mathematics courses in EE teach them the integrations and derivatives, the electronic classes should show how those operations are done with linear electronics and the choice ofa proof by using their diffeq class info. That will stick in their mind that digital circuits have linear components that must be worked around/negated/avoided.
my two cents, but a good topic!
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salma ali bakr
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 956
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| 16 Jun 2008 9:37 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I agree that some students are too lazy to open textbooks now or even do some googling..!! But this kind of students isn't the one that would constantly participate and be keen to help others, because simply they are inactive. They just come and go on a forum such as edaboard.
But what truly gives richness to forums, is the big number of members who're always contributing by helping others, or seeking answers to their own problems by asking more experienced individuals...
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n1cm0c
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 179
Helped: 22
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| 16 Jun 2008 11:51 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Did anyone *ever* answer a question in this board with a fully worked out and solved solution , let alone some kind of reference design ?
For most of the useful answers I would say that if the student knows little he/she will use little of it...
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santom
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 59
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| 16 Jun 2008 15:44 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Hi all,
Eventhough I am not so eligible to debate about this topic, I want to tell you all about my opinion in this one.People who really want to acheive something in their career will not seek help for their whole project, rather they seek only the help of base plot on which they would start working.
Expecting the whole solution to your problem doesnt make u to taste the real success(any matter for that case..!)
According to me, I would feel myself as very lucky to meet such high qualified professionals of my field through this excellent community.Let people take the things in the way in which they wish to as they are the ultimate sufferers of their actions.
Thank you all forever for this good work of creating the effective workgroup through this community
Regards
santom
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AdvaRes
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 595
Helped: 29
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| 16 Jun 2008 16:18 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I think that this forum is dangerous only for materialists, especially capitalists who thinks all the time of how to get more money.
I'm talking about books and Papers.
I respect the autors/inventors ideas and I appreciate a lot their effort that they made to write these documents but I see that they are themselves victims of publishers.
Do you think a book is worth to be 100 $ ? Is it a petrol baril or is it writen with gold ink ?
The same question impose itself for IEEE papers. As far as I know, the autors of papers dont get money for their papers. So why papers are expensive ?
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RF-OM
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 608
Helped: 108
Location: The Earth
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| 16 Jun 2008 17:34 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I agree with AdvaRes about book and paper prices. Definitely these numbers are artificially elevated. Several years ago when average technical book cost about $85-$90 I did a search and found that if you want to publish it yourself without any publishing house, you may do it for roughly $3 per 400 pages book in 1000 quantities. And it will be the book registered with Library of Congress, with ISBN number and all copyrights. All you need to do is to prepare camera ready file. It means that printing house will not do any editing and print your book as it is with soft cover. Then you may order printing in small quantities as much as you need and sell it through bookstores or Internet whatever is better for you. My investigation clearly showed that it is better to publish your book by yourself than sign a contract with publisher. This idea was confirmed recently when my good friend wrote program and book about RF amplifier design and gave it to Arthec House to publish and sell. He lost all his copyrights and Arthec sold 16 copies. From these 16 the first was bought by me and the next four were ordered by my company with my recommendation. Only 11 copies were actually sold by Arthec! If you write your own book do not go to publishing house.
Situation with technical articles is also not good for the authors. Practically all magazines do not pay for papers but keep copyrights. The author spends own time and efforts to write something good, but all this laborious work is for free. Plus there is a headache to get permission from your employer for publication. Only once my company paid me $500 per page for the article published in IEEE Microwave Magazine. It was nice but very rare case. IEEE also uses scientists for free work. I think that all magazines’ editors are working for free. One of my coworkers worked three years as magazine editor for free. He got Senior Member for this. Unfortunately IEEE degrades, this is one of the reasons why I decided not to join this society.
Best regards,
RF-OM
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troybtj
Joined: 13 Jun 2008
Posts: 7
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| 19 Jun 2008 23:49 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I think the above two posts clarify my brief mention of textbooks further.
Not only does a 2 year old book cost $85 used from the college bookstore, but the info is now 2.5 years old, so you can sell it for $15 if you were lucky. Again, this is 20 years ago, and from what I've heard, it hasn't changed much.
Depending on the course, some to over half of the students will not buy the book, but one in a group of friends will for shared classes, so only one copy needs to be purchased for 4 people for 4 classes. Some simply cannot afford the book and don't know somebody with it, they look on the net.
Much of the information in the books is on the Internet, between wiki and forums like this one, for about any specialty/topic. The only books I acquire currently are reference materials.
This boils down to the fact that if students can't learn or retain/apply information, they won't get a solid post grad career anyway, no matter what the degree says.
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ARagab
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Posts: 11
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| 20 Jun 2008 10:36 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I only have some questions ... when the people answer them ... I think all of us will understand the view better ...
1. as a lecturer or job-task-giver ... do you give enough time to the enginner to make his assignment? and if yes, how long?
as a lecturer or well experienced engineer nowadays it's really hard to estimate how long does it take for a beginning engineer to even well understand the task ... that's not your fault ... we are all know that ... it's only true. the engineer in his very first steps doesn't have enough time to read a book "to learn other stuff not relevant to his task" and even if he has ... he has to know first WHICH BOOK not begins to read zillion of books to finally know the one which has the Info he wants.
2. If an engineer has the time and finds the book and learns about his tasks, isn't it better to know or hear the opinion of a well experienced engineer? ... I think - and I am sure all will agree - experience can't be written in a book or a paper.
3. even for the undergraduate who sends such topics of "help me" or somethig like that don't you find that if he doesn't know the basics he gets really disappointed? actualy he faces one of three things:
a. either some other undergraduate will give him a quick answer which will either not satisfy his needs or be wrong and his professor will of course know. ... and in that case he will learn his lesson not to believe everything he reads and that is by itself a good lesson to learn
b. or some experienced engineer will give him the right answer (which I find rarely happens). and in that case he either learns something from one has more experience than he does but only loses the "beside knowledge", or he wouldn't understand the answer (because of the lag of basics) which drives him to work on the basics from the begining ... again another good lesson to learn
c. or any usual engineer would give him a book or a paper to READ (which I find happens very often) which drives him to the target of the assignment from the begining ... which is to LEARN
No offense, but your argument or dicussion was built on some feeling you have about it and some topics which rarely happen. and I think you'll get it more when you start really to share your knowledge which is part of your job as a lecturer anyway 
finally, I have a word to say ... gaining knowledge is accumulated ... it doesn't make any sense to begin from the ZERO when I can begin from +10 ... all what it takes to do that is to gain some knowledge of the basics and then keep it up ... I think we sholud all be thankful to have something like that which helps us sharing our knowledge and developing it furher.
I am really sorry if I was offensive to anybody ... I really didn't mean anything but to SHARE my ideas about the topic.
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rebelstar
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 7
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| 27 Jun 2008 6:12 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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hi LVW,
u r right.
1) but it all our responsibility to "think much" before asking a question.
2) If there is an intereting topic which can benefit everyone ,and may has the potential to spark new ideas in us, there is no harm in discussing it.
but yes, each one of us should learn first to think and then ask.
thanks
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joe1986
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 271
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| 05 Jul 2008 9:21 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| what i feel is if you are in a position to help a person, there's no harm in helping, if experienced GURU'S have a problem in spoon-feeding , then they should just give them a hint about the solution so that at least the person asking the question knows as to wht to do, or how to start, by knowing the solution and not replying is very "SELFISH".......not everyone is fortunate enough to get good teacher's or great help in college or school.
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zollder
Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 25
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| 11 Jul 2008 7:25 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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I don't think its dangerous, it just compensates the ignorant attitude of so called "professors" with respect to the students and saves student "lives", when it comes to drastic prices on the books.
nothing personal...
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ehsanelahimirza
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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| 11 Jul 2008 15:53 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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i will disagree.
i am a member of such forums since my university life. as an engineer of modern age i think that these forums has contributed a lot in development of skills i had. no teacher can teach us which is available on internet because a teacher cant provide hours to a single student, but here many professionals provide a solution which is sometimes very difficult to understand for a student as he has no practical experience with that matter yet. so he has to do some effort to understand those ideas and select one of them.
another point which i must say, we cant do every thing, in this way fast progress in electronics is in front of us i.e. some idea in form of a device by a manufacturer , other buys that and makes a new thing consisting previous object but different use. new company even dont bothers with what,how is this device built we are using, they only concern with use in their design.
now as i see myself and my friends, designing a circuit or a complete industrial solution is possible for a newly born engineer which is again is due to knowledge provided by internet. this is the pace of technology.
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joe1986
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 271
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| 19 Jul 2008 12:25 Re: Is this forum dangerous ? |
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| there is no harm in answering question's which are RIDICULOUS , but which can be answered , because you never know the age or I.Q of the person asking the question he can even be a 10 yr old or 12 yr old whose trying to take baby step's..............
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abc123
Joined: 28 Mar 2002
Posts: 49
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| 19 Jul 2008 19:25 Is this forum dangerous ? |
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Teachers need to update their skills in teaching in this internet age. you can not force student not to ask for outside help. since asking help should be a part of teaching too.
I remember the old days you need to search through the library, books yourself to find answers, later you just ask your librarian to search all the papers in the database for you, now you just use google to get the answers around the world. and this is why the primary school starting to teach kids to use the computer/network. Everyone on the network become students and teachers. IS todays student lazy? not necessary! they are too busy for all the free informations. they need to learn to sort out all the junk info. and the teachers has to learn how to ask the question and what is the answer they are looking for.
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