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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 26 Sep 2007 0:40 pickit clone |
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| funnynypd wrote: |
| This is the future. No more ICD2 crashing. |
My ICD2 works fine, and with MPLAB.
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folks
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 183
Helped: 18
Location: Guadalajara
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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26 Sep 2007 4:22 pickit 2 pcb |
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That explains the flurry of PICKit2 posts. 
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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30 Sep 2007 16:54 diy pickit 2 |
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Size of BB0703(PICkit2) and Microchip ICD2:
ICSP connection on breadboard with BB0704:
http://www.auelectronics.com/Q8.htm
Last edited by funnynypd on 10 Dec 2008 13:22; edited 3 times in total |
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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01 Oct 2007 22:25 pk2error0028: unable to enter debug mode |
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Well I got my PICKit2 prototype working today and here's my notes on it. My version has a fixed VDD (5V) and no clamps (no 3V support). It also avoids using any surface mount components. Mostly common parts but does require a single BS250 MOSFET to control VDD.
Comments
The PICKit2 is faster than a RS232 based ICD2 but not quite as fast as a USB based ICD2 when debugging. Programming it's on par with the ICD2.
The PICKit2 uses the USB HUD mode on windows (so no driver) and seems more bulletproof than my USB ICD2 at not losing its firmware when unplugged while MPLAB is running.
A simple boost converter makes VPP generation simple and reliable.
The only negative comment is only USB power (unless your target has its own power supply)
Debug mode is not quite a reliable as the ICD2, but this most likely can be fixed by a future firmware update.
As a hobby, student programmer / debugger and a cheap replacement of the ICD2 it's a winner in my opinion.
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folks
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 183
Helped: 18
Location: Guadalajara
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01 Oct 2007 23:34 pickit 2 diy |
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| blueroomelectronics wrote: |
| The only negative comment is only USB power (unless your target has its own power supply) |
Hi, great review.
Is it 100mA bus powered?
Can You see with the attach software?
Thanks
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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02 Oct 2007 1:58 diy pickit2 |
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| The Microchip user manual reports 100 mA max on the usb port though most USB can supply up to 500mA or even larger.
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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02 Oct 2007 3:27 pk2error0024 |
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Problem is unless the USB device asks for more power the USB will shutdown the port at more than about 150ma.
A powered USB hub can supply 500ma.
Second little hiccup, both MPLAB and PICKit2 software fail when trying to burn the ICD2 18F4550 firmware. The ICD2 clone works like a charm. Could be the prototype, hard to tell at this point.
I get this error in MPLAB and it fails during verify.
| Quote: |
| PK2Error0008 Overlapped I/O operation is in progress |
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ad_tech
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 5
Helped: 2
Location: Portugal - Estoril
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02 Oct 2007 13:09 pickit2 lite |
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| blueroomelectronics wrote: |
Second little hiccup, both MPLAB and PICKit2 software fail when trying to burn the ICD2 18F4550 firmware. The ICD2 clone works like a charm. Could be the prototype, hard to tell at this point.
I get this error in MPLAB and it fails during verify.
| Quote: |
| PK2Error0008 Overlapped I/O operation is in progress |
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Yes, definitively looks like a problem in your prototype.
I built 2 PICKIT2 prototypes over the weekend.
The first one worked perfectly from the first power up.
I have already flashed a large quantity of PIC’s 18F4550, 18F2550 and 16F877A, and also used your file, without any problem.
Both prototypes use a MC34063 to step up the 5V USB.
Fisrt one boosts 5V USB to 8 Volts and then back to 5.2 Volts using a 78L05 and a schottky diode.
Then I used a second diode to drop the 5.2 Volts back to 5Volts, to supply PIC2550 and memories.
Those 5.2 Volts are also used in the VDD target generator.
This way I can actually generate 2.5 to 5 volts with less than 50 mV error in the ICSP connector.
Tests were carried out with a 200 ohm resistor in the zif socket therefore creating a 25 mA load at target VDD of 5Volts.
A load/no load condition caused a 5 mV change in target VDD.
Without the step-up I can only go up to 4.8 Volts, due to the presence of D4 on the original schematic.
In the past I had some problems with an original PICKIT2 due to low USB voltages.
In one specific computer I had 4.5 Volts on the front panel, and that caused a lot of programming failures.
I also used trim pots to adjust VDD and VPP to target.
USB current is about 75 mA under loaded conditions.
PICKIT2 Software was tested under WIN ME and XP successfully.
Second prototype is not something you would like to write home about.
This time I used a 220uH coil with a centre tap.
MC34063 is generating 7.5 and 15 Volts.
Those 7.5 Volts are being used to generate 5.2 and 5 Volts as described above.
15 Volts are being feed to an OP AMP with a gain of 8 to generate/regulate VPP, by integrating the PWM signals from RC1 / VPP_PUMP.
It works nicely. It generates and regulates VPP but for some reason it fails bulk erase.
If starting with a blank device, I have no problems, but a non empty chip will not reprogram. I will try to figure this out over the next weekend.
How do you use PICKIT2 under MPLAB?
I cannot select it when using PIC18Fx550 or PIC16F877.
Regards,
Augusto Duro
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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02 Oct 2007 13:22 cb0703 |
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| You must have the latest firmware on the PICKit2 and MPLAB 7.62
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ad_tech
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 5
Helped: 2
Location: Portugal - Estoril
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02 Oct 2007 14:20 pk2error0008 |
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| blueroomelectronics wrote: |
| You must have the latest firmware on the PICKit2 and MPLAB 7.62 |
Thanks!
I was using 7.60A
I just downloaded and installed 7.62
PICKIK2 works nicely under this version and your file was flashed successfully.
Aduro
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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02 Oct 2007 18:40 pk2error0028 unable to enter debug mode |
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We also got to understand that, as a matter of fact, ICD2 has been developed for many, many years (More than 10 years probably? Correct me if I am wrong), and it still is not perfectly-well developed. Its hardware is so easy to fail. Before I switched to PICKit 2, I prayed every time when it was downloading a new os for a new chip. The reason I prayed is because I don't want more ICD2 exchange from Microchip even though it is free.
Marketing wide, ICD2 is getting the end of its life cycle.
PICkit 2 is still under its development process and is getting better and better. It used to be a programmer, now it is a debugger + Programmer with the newest MPLAB V7.62. Microchip also provides excellent technology support and did a marvelous job on design improvement.
One thing we shall give the credit to Microchip is: the hardware design and software design are all open (available for free) to the public, kind like the open-source Linux. The end-users like us get lots of benefit on it. This is not available to ICD2 at all.
Last edited by funnynypd on 18 Nov 2007 17:17; edited 1 time in total |
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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03 Oct 2007 0:06 pickit2 schematic |
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Well I went out today and bought a real PK2 for testing. It's not an expensive device and yes it programs the test file just fine.
The compatible I wish to design will skip the VDD & clamp. So the 18F2550 and four transistors should do the trick.
I think the flakiness of my original prototype was VDD might be too low. I'll retest on a second prototype and post the results and schematic.
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psmll
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 74
Helped: 4
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03 Oct 2007 0:24 pickit 2 schematic |
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| blueroomelectronics wrote: |
Well I went out today and bought a real PK2 for testing. It's not an expensive device and yes it programs the test file just fine.
The compatible I wish to design will skip the VDD & clamp. So the 18F2550 and four transistors should do the trick.
I think the flakiness of my original prototype was VDD might be too low. I'll retest on a second prototype and post the results and schematic. |
I had problems with some PICs, then I discover that it depends of the USB port that I use, then I discover that VDD is quite low with some USB ports, so I put a +5V external supply and never had problems again 
You can try to adjust the VDD with the PICkit soft, but if you read the manual, you will find that PIClit 2 can't have a VDD > 4.8V, and some PICs need more, the solution is to power the target PICs externally 
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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03 Oct 2007 0:56 pickit 2 circuit |
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| Quote: |
| some PICs need more |
Interesting, can you post some instance?
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| the solution is to power the target PICs externally |
True. So says Microchip support.
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Google
AdSense
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03 Oct 2007 0:56 Ads |
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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03 Oct 2007 5:18 pickit 2 review |
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| folks wrote: |
Hi, great review.
Is it 100mA bus powered?
Can You see with the attach software?
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Thanks
Yes it's 100mA bus powered, nice program very handy.
It also should be possible to patch the firmware so it asks for 200mA or 300mA in theory anyway.
The biggest problem with cloning the PK2 is it's so cheap to start with, about $40 retail with USB cable.
My strategy is to bundle a PK2 and the popular Firefly 16F88 Tutor kit on the same PCB.
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rglenn
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 1
Helped: 1
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03 Oct 2007 6:26 ds51292 |
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funnynypd, your assertion that the ICD2 is a 10 year old design is just garbage. Microchip wasn't even selling ICD-capable PICs in 1997.
The ICD 1, near as I can tell, was released around 1999 with the PIC16F87x series, which were the first to support in-circuit debugging. It was serial-only, and was developed by a contractor to Microchip as I recall. I also seem to recall it being rather a piece of garbage.
The ICD 2 was released in early 2002, making it a 5-6 year old product. The PICKIT2 was released in the middle of 2005, making it a 2-3 year old product. It only gained debug support last summer (2006), and that was only for one chip.
I realize that your sales depend on the PICKIT2 having a good image, but please stick to the facts if you want to denigrate the ICD2.
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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03 Oct 2007 15:06 pickit2 unable to enter debug mode |
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Rglenn,
Thanks for correcting me.
Actually, I don't know when ICD2 started. This is the reason why I asked people correcting me if I am wrong. I knew I could be wrong anytime, if anyone can correct me, I will accept it.
All I remember is (I could be wrong again this time, I personally am not good on time staff), back to the year of 2001, I have been used ICD2 and its demo board for development, this seems denying your "2002". I cannot verify your PICkit 2 time-line either, we will see if someone can verify it.
When you know the answer, you know that you know. When you don't know, please don't pretend that you know. Don't know many things doesn't shame you at all. Once people keep the hard work everyday, they will know many things they don't know today.
Also thanks for letting me know that you seem to like "garbage" a lot
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| I realize that your sales depend on the PICKIT2 having a good image, |
True and not true.
First of all, thanks for thinking for us and contributing to this community. Your Enthusiasm will be appreciated.
The good design and development for PICkit 2 should be credit back to Microchip crew; they did a great design job and provids very strong support on Microchip forum (there is also lots of PICkit 2 Fans there). If there is a positive image on PICKit2, Microchip crew will be the biggest winner, not us. Our business customers are few DIY fans and people who are open mind to different approaches, not the major business customer. We won't get the big sales, that I am sure. 
For those vendors of ICD2 clones, don't worry about us, we are not interested in the ICD2 clone business.
Our goal is to share the common interest and cost with our customer.
Sure it will bring in sales.
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folks
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 183
Helped: 18
Location: Guadalajara
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03 Oct 2007 19:15 edaboard cb0703 |
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| blueroomelectronics wrote: |
| folks wrote: |
Hi, great review.
Is it 100mA bus powered?
Can You see with the attach software?
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Thanks
Yes it's 100mA bus powered, nice program very handy.
It also should be possible to patch the firmware so it asks for 200mA or 300mA in theory anyway.
The biggest problem with cloning the PK2 is it's so cheap to start with, about $40 retail with USB cable.
My strategy is to bundle a PK2 and the popular Firefly 16F88 Tutor kit on the same PCB. |
Thanks for measured the power.
Yes, I think the firmware should be change because MChip provide the program sources.
The PK2 is expensive if you buy all the parts, but isn’t if you request some samples. Of course isn’t cheap when you try to sell the PK2 clone, the best choice is resell the original one.
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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03 Oct 2007 22:09 using pickit 2 mcp25050 |
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As promised here's a beta of the schematic for the PK2 SE (Student Edition)
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psmll
Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 74
Helped: 4
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04 Oct 2007 0:57 pic18f2685 bootloader |
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| funnynypd wrote: |
| Quote: |
| some PICs need more |
Interesting, can you post some instance? |
From "PICkit 2 Readme.txt":
| Code: |
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1. Device Support List
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(...)
+ Indicates parts that require 4.75V minimum VDD for programming.
PICkit 2 may not be able to generate sufficiently high VDD,
so an external 5.0v power supply may be required.
(...)
Midrange Devices
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PIC16F72+
PIC16F73+ PIC16F74+ PIC16F76+ PIC16F77+
PIC16F737+ PIC16F747+ PIC16F767+ PIC16F777+ |
But for example, I can't program the PIC10F222 with some USB ports, because the voltage drop too much, at the moment I don't use anymore the power of USB port and all work well in all USB ports.
One big problem of the PICkit 2 is that it takes the USB voltage as reference, but the USB voltage are different from PC to PC.
So I will put my PICkit 2 generating a hight voltage from the USB and then put for example a 7805 to get real 5V, then all problems disappear
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dsPIC24F
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
Helped: 14
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04 Oct 2007 1:09 ds41296 |
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| Quote: |
| an external 5.0v power supply may be required. |
So Microchip does recommend using a external 5 V supply for those chips. Thank you, psmll, for post this important information.
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funnynypd
Joined: 09 May 2007
Posts: 918
Helped: 21
Location: USA & Canada
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04 Oct 2007 1:45 pickit 2 unable to enter debug mode |
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| Quote: |
| but please stick to the facts if you want to denigrate the ICD2. |
My bad, if I mislead you.
All over all, ICD2 and PICkit 2, I love them both.
I have many years with ICD2 in my career life, way too many.
PICkit 2 is a new friend to me, now it has been an important tool for my daily life too (software development, programming, etc.). The ICD 2 has been basically phased out in my daily life after I got the PICkit 2.
ICD2 is good, not great. PICkit 2 is good too and we are seeing PICkit2 has been enhanced by Microchip in the recent past. Personally I believe there still some potential for PICkit 2 to improve the performance as people discussed in this forum. This is the reason we published our design with enhancement power supply features and try to provide more help on the DIY side.
The ICD2 and PICkit 2 are designed for different customers and markets. You just cannot compare an apple with an orange. Though every one might has his/her own favor.
The finial decision of the future about these two tools depend on Microchip and their crew (the clone developer has basically no influence).
Personally, I may be more favor the PICkit2 since I have multiple microchip platforms, and that ICD2 OS downloading thing worries me, it could be my computer or just my case, I got too many fails on the ICD2 os downloading and hardware failure. I am tired on exchange with Microchip. (Not a big deal for those of you who can afford the time waiting the exchanges or pay the premium for 2nd day shipping). So my ICD 2 has been just sitting there for most of the time since I got my PICkit2. If I don’t have to use it or loan to someone, I won’t touch it. Again, this is just a personal favor.
I do not worry much about been shoot down by the ICD2 competitors (such as: the great Blueroomelectronics, good company though), because those end user like "psmll" kind of smart guy will finally find the truth by themself and make their own decision. All we can do here is telling the truth. Again, if I am wrong, please correct me.
Trust your customer and people in this forum; they are smarter than you thought.
That I am pretty sure.
P.S. For those of people who send technical question to our web master (AuGroups(at)hotmail.com) by email, got answers from him, and then posted our web master’s answer on this forum without credit him, you don’t have to do that again, it takes too much time, and you suppose not doing that. Let’s talk in the forum if you got questions or staff we can help. Questions are always welcome in this forum. And we can be friends.
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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04 Oct 2007 1:54 pic18f14k50 bootloader |
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Do you actually read my posts. I'm for the PK2, it just has to mature a little more. MPLAB V8 is due out this month maybe that'll give the PK2 the firmware it needs. It's a great little programmer no doubt about it. But the real PK2 is only $40 so why would someone buy a clone for $29?
I've built a second prototype, still same problem.
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dsPIC24F
Joined: 04 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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04 Oct 2007 2:08 pickit2 zif socket |
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| blueroomelectronics wrote: |
| As promised here's a beta of the schematic for the PK2 SE (Student Edition) |
This "blueroomelectronics" guy and this "folks" guy are working together as a couple trying to kill this "Funny" guy everywhere in this forum.
And now they even start trying to ruin and mislead the PICkit 2 design.
Their purpose might just be :
1.keep selling their ICD 2 clone staff. I hope their ICD2 clone is not bunch of junk as what I saw on their PICkit 2 clone designs posted on the forum.
2.Kill new business guy/competitor like this poor "Funny" guy by ruin/poison the original PICkit 2 design.
I feel shame for both of you. Competition should be fair.
In the mean time, this is a discussion forum; please stop un-necessary un-technology posts. If you don't want to talk technology and improvement, all three/four/five... of you get out of this forum.
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blueroomelectronics
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1681
Helped: 99
Location: Toronto, Canada
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04 Oct 2007 4:25 pic18f258.hex tiny bootloader |
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What? I'm not trying to kill anyones design. I think the PICKit2 is a nice device it's also cheap. At $40 for a genuine PICKit2 it would be hard to make any money on a clone unless your clone did something different.
Only recently did the PK2 get an upgrade from Microchip, it's now a nice programmer but it's still a little buggy. I blame the .NET software. I can get the 2.10 firmware to lockup reliably with both a real PK2 and a clone. It does work with the older 1.2 software fine (both versions)
I have a recent model "red" button PK2 and the clone is based on that model.
Read the posts.
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